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The Toyota Witch Hunt

businessweek.com

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Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#51

Post by jswinghammer »

zzzmarcus wrote: post #25

Can someone explain to me why Congress gets involved in investigating things like Toyota's manufacturing defects or the way college football teams are ranked? Does Congress have a legal mandate to investigate anything it deems to be interesting/fishy/a potential target for legislation? Has Congress always conducted these types of investigations or is it a modern phenomenon?

They're effectively major stockholders of several competing companies. They have every reason to get involved.

It also allow them to organize two minute hate sessions for the media's consumption.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#52

Post by whyenot »

zzzmarcus wrote: post #45
whyenot wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cynic: Congress' mandate is to investigate anything that will get votes, or campaign funds. Wikipedia: Investigative hearings share some of the characteristics of legislative and oversight hearings. The difference lies in Congress’s stated determination to investigate, usually when there is a suspicion of wrongdoing on the part of public officials acting in their official capacity, or private citizens whose activitie…

Thanks for the answer. The difference is that the scandals in the Wikipedia article all directly involve government: Credit Mobilier: "The distribution of Crédit Mobilier stocks by Congressman Oakes Ames along with cash bribes to congressmen" Teapot Dome: "control of U.S. Navy petroleum reserves at Teapot Dome in Wyoming and at Elk Hills and Buena Vista in California, were transferred from the U.S. Navy Department to…

"Baseball Probe Begins Tomorrow" - Pittsburgh Post-Gazette, July 29, 1951.

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=DDAbAAAAIBAJ&sjid=d...

There are lots of other examples if you search newspaper archives using Google News. I encourage you to go look for yourself.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#53

Post by paulbaumgart »

presidentender wrote: post #12
erlanger wrote: post #8

I hold the conspiracy theory that these issues are being so aggressively sought out in an attempt to bring Toyota's image down to the level of American auto manufacturers.

I wholeheartedly agree. The sheer number of failures that have to occur, the low level of action on the drivers' parts required to overcome the problem (put it in neutral! Use your brakes! Use your parking brakes!), the speed and intensity of the government's response, and the fact that GM is so unpopular combine to make the entire debacle suspect.

I haven't driven any newer Toyotas, but do they not let you turn off the ignition while in motion/gear?

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#54

Post by stcredzero »

philwelch wrote: post #43
stcredzero wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you were creative and knew something about cars, you could pull one of many fuses from the fuse box. On cars I've serviced, the computer fuse is always in the driver kick panel, so just rip off that panel and start yanking fuses while watching the road. Unfortunately, this is probably considerably more dangerous than driving while on your cellphone.

Being distracted while driving is less safe than simply driving-- given that your car is in good working order . If you have a stuck accelerator, you're going to crash if you can't fix it. I'll take the distraction and possible loss of reaction time over the sudden and guaranteed death of flipping a curve at 120+, personally.

Please consider the entirely of your own scenario. Bending down awkwardly and taking your eyes off the road to get at fuses under the dash could well kill you if you are in an out of control speeding car.

Most of the other actions suggested can be taken while in standard driving posture. Those will be much safer than reaching for fuses under the dash.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#55

Post by psranga »

Any comments on this article? This auto professor is able to reproduce the problem.

http://www.leftlanenews.com/report-toyota-electronics-design...

This is what the article says about the prof:

  Instead, we were treated to Dr. David Gilbert of Southern Illinois University, also a guest of Mr. Kane's, who claimed to have found how Toyota's electronic system could totally malfunction, creating a runaway car—and claimed he'd found the error in less than four hours. Spoiler alert: Dr. Gilbert was assigned this work by Kane's safety advocacy firm, with at least partial funding by trial lawyers.

  Here, too, is a problem: Dr. Gilbert said he relayed the results of that test and his concerns directly to Toyota. In short order Toyota looked into Dr. Gilbert's claims and found them not to be valid in terms of creating unintended acceleration. Then, to the company's surprise, it watched his appearance with Brian Ross on ABC News this past Monday night, Feb. 22.

  According to Toyota, it now appears that Dr. Gilbert had done something completely different in order to get a Toyota Avalon to accelerate under its own power. Toyota offered to evaluate Dr. Gilbert's Avalon, with ABC in attendance, and see what he did electronically to cause it to accelerate.

  Additionally, Toyota is fairly adamant that Gilbert's "test evaluation" on ABC News was not the original "discovery" he relayed to them on Feb. 16.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#56

Post by baguasquirrel »

paulbaumgart wrote: post #53
presidentender wrote: post #12

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I wholeheartedly agree. The sheer number of failures that have to occur, the low level of action on the drivers' parts required to overcome the problem (put it in neutral! Use your brakes! Use your parking brakes!), the speed and intensity of the government's response, and the fact that GM is so unpopular combine to make the entire debacle suspect.

I haven't driven any newer Toyotas, but do they not let you turn off the ignition while in motion/gear?

You can, but then it's stuck in drive/neutral. Seeing that the brakes and neutral are still operable, it should not be an issue. I don't even know why people are being advised to turn off the ignition. Shifting to neutral while braking reduces the load on the engine.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#57

Post by evgen »

presidentender wrote: post #12
erlanger wrote: post #8

I hold the conspiracy theory that these issues are being so aggressively sought out in an attempt to bring Toyota's image down to the level of American auto manufacturers.

I wholeheartedly agree. The sheer number of failures that have to occur, the low level of action on the drivers' parts required to overcome the problem (put it in neutral! Use your brakes! Use your parking brakes!), the speed and intensity of the government's response, and the fact that GM is so unpopular combine to make the entire debacle suspect.

While it is easy to say "put it in neutral", this is not quite a simple as it once was. With the popular serpentine shift patterns on modern cars a lot of people are surprised to find that neutral is no longer just a spot on the transition path between park and drive. To take a frequently cited example, the ES350 whose stuck accelerator killed a CHP officer and his family has a shift pattern that makes getting into neutral a bit more tricky than you suggest (particularly when you are shooting down the road at over 140 feet per second.) The driver response to these incidents may factor in to some of the problems and the fact that Toyota is the company with a problem may have politicized some of the government response, but to suggest that the solution was as simple as you claim reveals a profound ignorance of the facts at hand.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#58

Post by pohl »

Sthorpe wrote: post #41
pohl wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm pretty sure the news media doesn't decide which drum to beat every night based upon which drum people expect them to beat.

Really? You really believe that? All I ever see on the news is death, tragedy and drama. If they showed us something we didn't expect we wouldn't watch.

I believe there is a distinction between acting in a way to meet expectations, and acting in some way to gain attention. You seem to be speaking of the latter in your last post, and of the former in the one prior.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#59

Post by evgen »

zzzmarcus wrote: post #45
whyenot wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

cynic: Congress' mandate is to investigate anything that will get votes, or campaign funds. Wikipedia: Investigative hearings share some of the characteristics of legislative and oversight hearings. The difference lies in Congress’s stated determination to investigate, usually when there is a suspicion of wrongdoing on the part of public officials acting in their official capacity, or private citizens whose activitie…

Thanks for the answer. The difference is that the scandals in the Wikipedia article all directly involve government: Credit Mobilier: "The distribution of Crédit Mobilier stocks by Congressman Oakes Ames along with cash bribes to congressmen" Teapot Dome: "control of U.S. Navy petroleum reserves at Teapot Dome in Wyoming and at Elk Hills and Buena Vista in California, were transferred from the U.S. Navy Department to…

Seeing as how the government is in charge of setting the safety standards for the nations interstate highways and is responsible (via the NHTSA) for regulating the safety of cars on the road I am wondering how in the world you would not think this is the sort of thing Congress should investigate? If you are looking for a specific justification, examine the commerce clause of the us constitution.

Re: The Toyota Witch Hunt

#60

Post by paulbaumgart »

baguasquirrel wrote: post #56
paulbaumgart wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I haven't driven any newer Toyotas, but do they not let you turn off the ignition while in motion/gear?

You can, but then it's stuck in drive/neutral. Seeing that the brakes and neutral are still operable, it should not be an issue. I don't even know why people are being advised to turn off the ignition. Shifting to neutral while braking reduces the load on the engine.

Wouldn't shifting to neutral make the engine rev up really high? Does the computer limit the RPMs to prevent damage?
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