Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER • Hacker News Board

Re: Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER

#51

Post by throwaway5752 » Wed, May 11, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

As CEO, you have a moral obligation to your employees, a fiduciary responsibility to the board and stockholders, and a legal responsibility under California and Federal law that makes your suggestion poor advice.

It is very nice that in your instance and outcome that was so mutually agreeable was reached by all parties. However, it could have easily gone differently, and can go differently in the future. As other commenters in that other thread noted: if the individual who was harassed was on a PIP, if the individual harasses an external vendor/contractor/customer, if he or someone else harasses another employee in the future, if the harassee leaves the company under circumstances that are not mutually disagreeable... all of these are very likely to result in material civil settlements to the company (and possibly the CEO personally) if this is not handled in a way very close to what patio11 described. Raising with HR vs contacting a lawyer will certainly result in the same outcome, regardless.

Re: Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER

#52

Post by bargl » Wed, May 11, 2016, 2:31 PM UTC

mschuster91 wrote: post #45

bargl wrote: post #37

Can I just say that I love how people are immediately jumping on the, LETS FUCKING NUKE THIS GUY bandwagon. How do we know the complaint was legitamate? Where is the scientific doubt? Where is the investigation? While I don't approve of the OP raking another HN user over the coals this publicly. She does make a GREAT point. Seek mediation, don't fire right away. She isn't saying don't get a lawyer, that's what HR wou…

> But that is in fact what adults do. They mediate, they don't act without doing research, finding context and getting both sides of the story. If the male says, "Well I never said that!" and you terminate his employment how is that an appropriate reaction? Sorry, but that isn't true all too often. We have seen both radfems and rad-MRAs starting shitstorms on the Internet over all kinds of stuff where a reasonable ad…

I should have written. "But that is in fact what adults should do".

Re: Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER

#53

Post by Mendenhall » Wed, May 11, 2016, 2:32 PM UTC

vacri wrote: post #42

Mendenhall wrote: post #18

I had read the original post and the comment you are referring to, but I did not post in the original thread. While I think you do have very valid points and definitely some words to consider. When I got to this line I paused. "Men and women need to learn to interact at work." While I think it is very true the question I asked myself is, should my company be the training ground for people to learn to get along ? The…

> Side note - I don't like the term terrorist being used so lightly. Yet oddly, you're happy to use 'nuke them', and don't mention a problem with 'final solution' used in the exact same context as 'terrorist' was...

I thought she was using the term nuke em playfully while she was using the term terrorist in a more serious manner.

Re: Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER

#54

Post by noxToken » Wed, May 11, 2016, 2:32 PM UTC

jasode wrote: post #8

>So, I am female. Yes, but here's the way I read it: "I am [a] female" and you provided one anecdote for us to consider. (E.g. Working relationship turned out fine for you in the end.) Nonetheless, I don't read it as "I represent females". My experience behind closed doors with HR about harassing males is to err on the side of termination. Sure, if a man makes 2 offers for a "drinks after work?" and the woman refuses…

To preface this, I am not excusing the guy's behavior. However, I think I understand why he may have thought it was alright to call her a MILF.

MILF became a really popular term in the early 00s. Back then, it was obviously vulgar. I think the term has been thrown around so casually, that to most people, it has lost its bite. Hell, morning zoo shows will drop MILF (even though the "F" is blatantly vulgar) without batting an eyes. To a lot of people, I don't think MILF generates the same reaction as outwardly saying, "She looks good. I'd like to fuck her." To him, it was probably analogous to saying, "You look good. Really good. We should go out sometime," with the subtext of sex after the date.

Again, I don't think he was right. Just trying to provide a rationale.

Re: Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER

#55

Post by busterarm » Wed, May 11, 2016, 2:34 PM UTC

ulber wrote: post #39

The comment by patio11 [1] this article is trying to refute is not an appeal to authority, and as such this article (being an ad hominem) seems ill considered. Why attack the user instead of the comment? [1]: https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=11666947

If anything, Michelle demonstrates a good argument for getting rid of the /leaders page on HN.

Comparing e-penises is an adolescent exercise and waste of time.

Re: Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER

#56

Post by kelukelugames » Wed, May 11, 2016, 2:35 PM UTC

spriggan3 wrote: post #22

> Men and women need to learn to interact at work I disagree, there is something called respect and politeness, if you need to learn it at work ,then your parents did a bad job raising you. Calling a woman "a milf" is inappropriate, period. I'm black, if a colleague called me "n__gger", would he need training so he can learn to interact at work with black people ? that's not serious. If the male employee was just a b…

Calling someone a MILF is at best socially awkward. Using it on a coworker is grossly inappropriate. Plus if someone is problematic this early then they will likely continue to cause problems.

With that said, I worked with very stupid people. Great programmers but under-socialized. These people have no idea how much harm they are causing but will snap out of it if reproached by HR or management. I know that doesn't sound fair but there are a lot of dumbasses in our industry.

Re: Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER

#57

Post by icebraining » Wed, May 11, 2016, 2:36 PM UTC

smoyer wrote: post #38

Mendenhall wrote: post #18

I had read the original post and the comment you are referring to, but I did not post in the original thread. While I think you do have very valid points and definitely some words to consider. When I got to this line I paused. "Men and women need to learn to interact at work." While I think it is very true the question I asked myself is, should my company be the training ground for people to learn to get along ? The…

I tend to lean towards patio11's solution simply because the description of the perpetrator made him sound like someone who already failed to grasp the limits of the social contract. As for patio11's being sketchy, I think I've read everything he's written (starting on the Joel-on-Software forum) and while I don't agree with him on everything, I do believe he's got reasonable ethics and morals. Why use the word sketc…

Why use the word sketchy when you simply don't agree with his opinion?

The post described a pretty different situation that just disagreeing with him. Not that I'm taking it at face value, since it wasn't described in enough detail to evaluate it for myself.

Re: Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER

#58

Post by cmdrfred » Wed, May 11, 2016, 2:38 PM UTC

chillingeffect wrote: post #28

justaman wrote: post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This article reads as "Don't take his advice. I don't like him therefore his advice is bad."

I'm kind of getting the same vibe, BUT... ...I'm assuming there's something subtler and importanter to it, because it seems Michele/Mz has a damned decent brain going on. I mean seriously, how often do you find someone with this nuance of opinion: "I loathe the expression "The Patriarchy" and I think it mostly does not fit the issues of gender disparity seen on HN. I can think of one or two men there who strike me as…

That was very well said. Statements like this attempt to find common cause and allow us to come together for a solution. Calling someone a member of "The Patriarchy" is dismissive and removes men from the conversation.

Re: Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER

#59

Post by pc86 » Wed, May 11, 2016, 2:39 PM UTC

icebraining wrote: post #47

pc86 wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You know how some people don't like other people who have found success? If your success is defined "lots of karma on HN" (as Mz's seems to be based on her profile) you're probably not going to be fond of those who are popular and generally well liked. Outside of YC employees and maybe tptacek, Patrick is one of the most prolific commentesr on HN, consistently provides a lot of objectively correct information, and is…

Nothing in her profile text allows you to make the inference that her grudge is based on jealousy of his karma and popularity. Even if you think that's likely, it's a pretty lousy thing to post publicly.

He's got a lot of karma (#2 according to her blog post). She makes a big deal of the date when she reached 10k. I think it's a safe assumption that's an important metric to her.

Re: Lawyer lawyer lawyer LAWYER lawyer LAWYER

#60

Post by enraged_camel » Wed, May 11, 2016, 2:39 PM UTC

throwaway5752 wrote: post #51

As CEO, you have a moral obligation to your employees, a fiduciary responsibility to the board and stockholders, and a legal responsibility under California and Federal law that makes your suggestion poor advice. It is very nice that in your instance and outcome that was so mutually agreeable was reached by all parties. However, it could have easily gone differently, and can go differently in the future. As other com…

>>It is very nice that in your instance and outcome that was so mutually agreeable was reached by all parties. However, it could have easily gone differently, and can go differently in the future.

Exactly. It was a big risk and her company frankly got lucky that it worked out.