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Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

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51–60 of 79 posts

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#51

1980-2000s: Reagan removes the Fairness Doctrine... TIL Rush Limbaugh will cause the end of the world. Hilarious.

Not the end of the world, but I do see him historically as the beginning of the end for the Republican Party. I was in college when I first heard of Rush Limbaugh. Before him, Republicans were these very stuffy folks like William Buckley Jr, who came to our campus and bored many to tears with highly-intellectual and logical arguments that were extremely challenging and generated a great deal of cognitive dissonance f…

As your neighbour to the north you make it sound like the Republican party has fractured into two groups. Those that are conservative (the Buckley Republicans in your example), and those ignorant masses that respond to jingoist and politico-entertainment rather than well thought out political debate. (I'm shocked that anyone would label them self a dittohead, implying that they have no independent thought, rather in my mind's eye that is a hurtful label that I'd reserve only for my worst enemy).

From what I've observed in this election cycle I can't disagree with your assessment, though I am deeply saddened at this realization.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I guess what he means is that more substantive issues work the same way as the boat naming thing -- they ask for your vote but then if they don't like the result they'll toss it.

Good point. I'll be controveraial and point out that there are parallels to Prop 8 in California here. And the immigration legislation in Arizona that was overturned. Tell me that doesn't feed into the Trump candidacy.

Well, IMO the biggest thing is the economy -- people feel like they were sold a bill of goods with the experts coming in and telling them that free trade would be great and make them more prosperous and now they live in towns that are shadows of their past selves and suffer under- and unemployment.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#53
post #24
post #21

This article is massive clickbait, but I'll comment anyway. Trump and Sanders are manifestations of a long-term trend that has been building at least since the 2008 Financial Crisis. People are dissatisfied with the options they are presented politically, and economic participation is at historically low levels. We have never been more prosperous, but at the same time that prosperity and wealth gains are not only not…

>Now the hip drinks are craft beers and fine wines, and a former factory worker forced to work menial part time jobs is looked down upon for drinking what he can afford, Bud lite and coke. Two related articles that may inform your discussions of this topic: http://www.vox.com/2016/4/21/11451378/smug-american-liberali... http://www.stirjournal.com/2016/04/01/i-know-why-poor-whites... For context, and lest anyone think…

Thank you for sharing these articles. The first one from vox really feels like it underlines not only the smugness that's crept into liberalism, but also its tone is exasperated and at times even pleading.

It feels like a reflection of the mood of our general political discussion, where people are pissed off with the echo chamber and not getting the empathy that's needed from either direction to make livable decisions. This feels like one of those situations where human nature hasn't changed, but the internet has fundamentally altered social dynamics.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#54
post #21

This article is massive clickbait, but I'll comment anyway. Trump and Sanders are manifestations of a long-term trend that has been building at least since the 2008 Financial Crisis. People are dissatisfied with the options they are presented politically, and economic participation is at historically low levels. We have never been more prosperous, but at the same time that prosperity and wealth gains are not only not…

> We have never been more prosperous That's exactly the problem. For the 1st time in recorded history of democratic societies, the sons will live in worst conditions than their parents. This didn't happen even when after major armed conflicts. 1st world has increasing economic output but most people of the new generation also in the 1st world are starting to live and will live their life in worst conditions than thei…

> For the 1st time in recorded history of democratic societies, the sons will live in worst conditions than their parents.

This lie needs to stop being told.

The Greatest Generation was born in the 1915 era, grew up in the "Roaring Twenties", the largest economic boom in the US to that date. When they became of age ~18 (1933), the USA was hit with twin economic disasters:

* The Great Dust Bowl eradicated entire farms across entire states. Forcing many farmers to move to the city to look for labor. When the farmers got to the cities, they found...

* The Great Depression. `nuff said

The "Greatest Generation" wandered around with 20%+ unemployment level for YEARS while "old money" sat comfortably enjoying the benefits of new-fangled technology like air conditioning and ice machines.

When the economy was finally doing well, the USA joins World War 2 and virtually every working male is drafted into the military. If you didn't die in the war period in the 1940s, you came back to 90% tax rates so that the US could pay off their debt. It wasn't until 1950 or so, when the post-war economic boom started to positively affect this generation, when they were well into the age of 35 or older.

-----------------

Yes, the "Greatest Generation" had a crappier life than their parents. And then the "Greatest Generation" set up huge amounts of programs (invented Social Security, Medicare, started paying incredibly for education) to ensure that their children would have better lives than they did.

Come on, basic history people. THINK when these politicians shout words to you. Don't just parrot out their lies.

I mean, cripes. Just look at the literature that was written in the 1930s by the Greatest Generation. "Of Mice and Men" is about vagabonds looking for farm-work. While "Their Eyes were Watching God" is about a woman who was beaten by multiple suitors before being forced to kill the man she loves because a hurricane wiped out a region and a rabid dog have him rabies.

Common in both stories? Hard, hands-on work, and vagabond living. "Casual Homelessness", as these people travel from town-to-town on foot looking for a way of life. Everyone is a nomad and homeless, and not a big deal is given to it.

In contrast, the "Great Gatsby", written one generation earlier in the 1920s is about rich people doing rich things, and is literally about a new rich person not being respected by older richer people. While the main character gets a new house "modestly" and watches across his Long Island lake property at the "actual rich people" and moral bankruptcy of the parties they hold.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#55

To be fair, the "New Deal" regime was perceived to be failing circa 1970. For instance, the New Deal left racism intact in the South, there was the Vietnam war, the "Spirit of '68", high inflation, a huge expansion of regulations leading to more problems (for instance the 1974 model year of automobiles were awful because they had to satisfy stricter emission standards without a perfected catalytic converter, etc.) Th…

To offer a different perspective, we also had the cold war during this period. This was an era where the US was successfully outspending USSR militarily. I would argue, as others have, that if we hadn't dedicated significant resources to our military then those resources could have been applied to society and possibly avoided the crisis of democracy.

Or to put it simply the hawks in power manufactured our own crisis to stop us from focusing on domestic and social improvements.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> We have never been more prosperous That's exactly the problem. For the 1st time in recorded history of democratic societies, the sons will live in worst conditions than their parents. This didn't happen even when after major armed conflicts. 1st world has increasing economic output but most people of the new generation also in the 1st world are starting to live and will live their life in worst conditions than thei…

> For the 1st time in recorded history of democratic societies, the sons will live in worst conditions than their parents. This lie needs to stop being told. The Greatest Generation was born in the 1915 era, grew up in the "Roaring Twenties", the largest economic boom in the US to that date. When they became of age ~18 (1933), the USA was hit with twin economic disasters: * The Great Dust Bowl eradicated entire farms…

And exactly as the article states, there was a revolution exactly at that time because of the effects of the great depression and the lives of those people ended up better than their parents after that same revolution took place.

A revolution doesn't need to be an armed revolution.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#57
post #21

This article is massive clickbait, but I'll comment anyway. Trump and Sanders are manifestations of a long-term trend that has been building at least since the 2008 Financial Crisis. People are dissatisfied with the options they are presented politically, and economic participation is at historically low levels. We have never been more prosperous, but at the same time that prosperity and wealth gains are not only not…

It goes back to at least the descent from peak manufacturing back in the late 70s. In the eighties it was inconographied by the sledgehammer destruction of imported cars.

That was the working class shouting out loud, hey, we're losing our jobs in the name of globalization, but we're not seeing benefits only turmoil (and in retrospect cheap consumerization of goods).

So, by and large, the blue collar working class have shouldered the repercussions from the gains enjoyed by the upper middle class and the wealthy -gains made possible through globalization.

In addition to that working class whites feel that they have shouldered most of the cost of equalization of justice and economics. That's to say when society addresses past injustices its remedy is not equally shared by the upper middle class and the wealthy. In other words when the seriously aggrieved are given a chance at success it's not at the cost to upper middle classers or the wealthy but mostly the working class.

It's not that they are bigots and are racists and begrudge success of classes historically disadvantaged, it's that the upper middle class and wealthy never contribute to the cost of justice.

I think after decades of pandering from Repubs and Dems who just patronize them they have had it and are asking for their money back. I think this is what you see.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#58

1980-2000s: Reagan removes the Fairness Doctrine... TIL Rush Limbaugh will cause the end of the world. Hilarious.

Not the end of the world, but I do see him historically as the beginning of the end for the Republican Party. I was in college when I first heard of Rush Limbaugh. Before him, Republicans were these very stuffy folks like William Buckley Jr, who came to our campus and bored many to tears with highly-intellectual and logical arguments that were extremely challenging and generated a great deal of cognitive dissonance f…

The irony with that is Rush never really endorsed Trump during the primaries. It was very uncomfortable for him, he at times refused to even talk about Trump.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#59

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> For the 1st time in recorded history of democratic societies, the sons will live in worst conditions than their parents. This lie needs to stop being told. The Greatest Generation was born in the 1915 era, grew up in the "Roaring Twenties", the largest economic boom in the US to that date. When they became of age ~18 (1933), the USA was hit with twin economic disasters: * The Great Dust Bowl eradicated entire farms…

And exactly as the article states, there was a revolution exactly at that time because of the effects of the great depression and the lives of those people ended up better than their parents after that same revolution took place. A revolution doesn't need to be an armed revolution.

I care about your ridiculous claim that's being lamented by certain politicians who have nothing better to do than lie at your face.

> For the 1st time in recorded history of democratic societies, the sons will live in worst conditions than their parents

Can people PLEASE stop saying this line? The article notes a cycle, which is closer to my understanding of history. But none of this "first time ever" crap. I swear, every time Marco Rubio said this line I wanted to punch him in the face.

Re: Trump-Sanders Signal an Oligarchy on the Brink of Collapse

#60
post #43

I'm very hopeful this election gives the third parties a boost. Unless I suffer a terrible stroke between now and the election I know I will be voting libertarian simply because I couldn't live with myself voting for Trump or Hillary.

I would like to see a coordinated effort from those of us who won't vote for the mainstream candidates.

If any 3rd party candidate gets over 5% of the vote, they must by law be included in the debates next time around. We know that a 3rd party will not win the presidential election this time around, so coordinating our votes to get one over 5% in order to inject a new voice into the process seems like a win, even if the party is one I am generally opposed to.

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