Hacker News Board Hacker News, browsed like a classic message board
Live data from Hacker News

The German reference letter system

englishjobs.de

Post reply on HN
Print view View original

51–57 of 57 posts

Re: The German reference letter system

#51

Post by derefr »

nraynaud wrote: post #20
pgeorgi wrote: post #5

I prefer the reference letter system over the personal references system popular in the US because the letter decouples you from former employers. They don't get calls every time you're in talks with a recruiter. The amount of information that's passed along is standardized (even if it's a weird standard, but see below) and better controlled. It's possible to request interim reports, and when doing it semi-regularly…

In France you have a certificate of employment, "that guy was employed from that date to that date, for this job, and he leaves with/without strings attached" (non-competes, etc.) No judgement of valor, no personal stuff, it confirms the dates, the name of the company and the job title (be careful if you have been promoted internally without your official title adjusted).

Thinking about this, that's basically equivalent to, in America, handing out your American W2 tax forms instead of references. The forms give a duration for which each company had you on payroll, plus a separation code (layoff, quit, fired with/without cause) if you're no longer there.

Sure, they also show how much you were being paid, but presumably you could wait until after a salary negotiation to hand these over.

Re: The German reference letter system

#52

Post by bane »

Hermel wrote: post #36
lordnacho wrote: post #27

I got offered a job in Switzerland last year. It was the weirdest experience ever. What I suspect happened was I'd written "scrum certified" on my cv, and the job had "scrum manager" in the title, so the poor people were bound by the law of stupid to interview only people with this string in their cv. They never asked me anything relevant. I code a bunch of languages, I can manage people, yada yada, they didn't care.…

What is in your opinion the right way to check whether you have actually graduated at Oxford and what grades you had if not asking for the official documents that contain this information?

In the US at least, you can usually get information from http://www.studentclearinghouse.org

Re: The German reference letter system

#54

Post by SFJulie »

Why do companies have the right to demand references, and there is no way for an employee to require references or data from a company? It is totally unfair.

Oh! And with new European law on business secrecy, you can be sued if you put a comment on a website rating companies like they do on indeed.

I love European Community that makes it always better for the business and worse for the workers.

Re: The German reference letter system

#55

Post by pyrale »

tokenadult wrote: post #45
pyrale wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Contacting former employers or talking about your former employees to a prospective employer is illegal in France. Although it's hard to prove, when they don't ask you directly to give contacts away.

Contacting former employers or talking about your former employees to a prospective employer is illegal in France. The law is different here in the United States, of course, and in most countries. I wonder how much of the slow economic growth and high unemployment in France is connected to this information-denying and thus efficiency-frustrating law?

You realize that these same laws were in place when economic condition were different, right ?

On a more general note, I would to reconsider your appreciation about France, and in general, about countries which work differently from yours. Unemployment in France is a huge social impediment, but I don't believe it has nearly as much effects on the economy as you think it has.

One of the reasons for it is that jobless people are low-productivity, low-qualification which, if employed, would not contribute significantly to our economy. Also by increasing work price, pressure is created on companies to improve work efficiency. I wouldn't say there is a strong connection, but UK's productivity puzzle has been conjectured to be linked with zero-hour jobs.

Re: The German reference letter system

#56

Post by tiatia »

brianwawok wrote: post #48
tiatia wrote: post #25

The reference letter system is bullshit. Besides, most of them are written by the employee himself upon the request of the employer (too busy, can you write it yourself and I sign it?). My advice would be: If in doubt, fake it. The chance the the company will call your previous employer are not zero but close to zero. Even if they call they would just asked if you worked there and not if the letter of recommendation…

I don't thinking faking references is a good long term play. So turns out you really get a great job, and get promoted to manager. Now HR hears a rumor and checks your application, finds out you lied. Guess what happens to your job?

Depends. First, you may not have gotten the first job at all. Second, I doubt any one would find out about a rigged letter. If it is totally fake (you never worked there) then there is a bigger chance.

Re: The German reference letter system

#57

Post by Hermel »

lordnacho wrote: post #39
Hermel wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What is in your opinion the right way to check whether you have actually graduated at Oxford and what grades you had if not asking for the official documents that contain this information?

The right way is to ask for the documents. The right question is whether a guy who is over a decade out needs to do so, as the degree is not evidence of competence when it's been that long. Of course it's possible they went with getting paperwork rather than using the interview as an opportunity to ask relevant questions. Interviewing is hard.

> The right way is to ask for the documents.

That's what they did, so why are you complaining? (Note that these documents are called Zeugnis in German, which translates to certificate, so maybe something got lost in translation if you think your university certificates are the wrong documents.)

I also disagree that an academic title earned 10 years ago is irrelevant. Having graduated with good grades from a top school signals a lot, even if it's been a while ago.

Post reply on HN