> The U.S. government concurrently has criticized the fundamental prevention principal of the EU Consumer Centre which protects 500 million Europeans from consuming genetically modified food and hormone-treated meat. Good for the EU. If only our government showed the same care for its own citizens.
> The U.S., for example, demands that statutory prohibitions on products to protect human health should only be allowed to be passed if it has been scientifically proven that these products really are harmful. Sounds like a reasonable argument.
TTIP Documents Revealed
51–60 of 94 posts
Re: TTIP Documents Revealed
#52Earlier quoted context omitted.
The most alarming features of this proposed legislation are the facts that it contains this: ".. it also contains an ‘investor protection’ provision allowing corporations to effectively sue governments for taking action to harm their business." (source: http://www.publicfinanceinternational.org/news/2016/02/ttip-... ) So .. effectively, this could mean that a corporation could overrule a government in legislation if…
Okay, first of all, that's bullshit. ISDS (Investor-State Dispute Settlement) is a sane concept. The implementation might have problems (for example closed courtroom "trials"), but it's not about protecting profits. It's about protecting equality and fairness for all before the law, and in case of States, holding them accountable to make fair and egalitarian laws. What's the typical example? A random Company invests…
http://www.theguardian.com/business/2015/nov/10/tpps-clauses...
Re: TTIP Documents Revealed
#53Earlier quoted context omitted.
And if someone thinks this is a virtual threat, google for "Philip Morris vs. (Australia|Uruguay)" (countries being sued for anti-tobacco regulations hurting business of PM)
That's a frivolous suit. They are grasping at straws. http://theconversation.com/big-tobacco-vs-australia-philip-m... Yes, it's a virtual threat.
http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/dec/18/austra...
Re: TTIP Documents Revealed
#54Earlier quoted context omitted.
"(as generally EU is the over-regulated side) Why is regulation a bad thing? These rules exist for a reason in health/food for example.
Generally I agree with you. The recent changes to VAT feel like a mess. Maybe I'm missing something there and they're not as bad as they seem?
For a start, it is effectively impossible for any business to fully comply with the rules now, unless it literally has the resources to understand detailed tax rules in every EU member state.
Even a good faith effort to comply with the spirit of the new rules and file the necessary returns will be beyond many micro-businesses. As a direct consequence, it appears that many people's side-businesses have ceased trading altogether, which of course is a loss to those businesses, their customers and the tax revenues of the affected states. The relevant authorities failed to even recognise that many thousands of such businesses existed at all, or to consult with them or take their situation into account in any way when writing the rules. In some cases, senior government figures even expressed surprise, when awareness was finally raised among the small business community literally just a few days before the new rules kicked in, that no-one had spoken up sooner in the multi-year process of writing the rules (that none of the affected people had any reason to know about).
Perhaps the biggest kick in the teeth of all is that for most small businesses that were large enough that it was worth continuing, the easiest way to comply was to outsource the various handling to specialist services. Given that the claimed purpose of these rules was to make it harder for large international businesses with lots of accountants to reduce their tax payments, would you like to guess what types of business were best placed to offer those new specialised services to the small, local businesses who got screwed by the new rules and thus profit off the creation of those rules at the expense of the small businesses?
Re: TTIP Documents Revealed
#55Earlier quoted context omitted.
In theory the laws are great. But they should be applied over a certain revenue threshold, say €1M. They're a mess for someone selling a few items per month to customers all around Europe (like selling an ebook on your own website).
Can you link to more details about this? As far as I know the VAT law applies only to service providers (like Skype, and AWS) and you can easily file taxes through the mini one-shop-stop way ( http://www2.deloitte.com/global/en/pages/tax/articles/eu-201... - chose an EU Member State, I recommend Ireland, their online thingie seems to be okay ).
As someone running small businesses that do have to deal with EU tax rules in some cases, it is hard to imagine how they could have got this one more wrong. I know several people who run other relatively small businesses (though in some cases much larger than any of mine) who after also going through the hassle of modifying all of their systems to comply as well as possible have the same conclusion as me. For all of us, the most commercially reasonable option if we had known the full cost of compliance would have been to instead simply decline to take on any EU customers outside our home nations from the date the new rules came into effect and have nothing to do with the rest of the EU or its VAT rules at all.
Re: TTIP Documents Revealed
#56Earlier quoted context omitted.
Okay, first of all, that's bullshit. ISDS (Investor-State Dispute Settlement) is a sane concept. The implementation might have problems (for example closed courtroom "trials"), but it's not about protecting profits. It's about protecting equality and fairness for all before the law, and in case of States, holding them accountable to make fair and egalitarian laws. What's the typical example? A random Company invests…
"A random Company invests in a country, sets up a nice subsidiary starts doing business, everything is legal. But the country (the State) sees that it's taking up the market, uh-oh," when this has been done and when it has happened not in the interest of public well being? on the other hand here is an example of what some corporations actually do in the present https://youtu.be/6UsHHOCH4q8?t=6m54s
http://theconversation.com/big-tobacco-vs-australia-philip-m...
The Uruguay v Philip Morris is the same, they claim that they have a right to use their trademark on packages. Might be true, the tribunal will find out. Still Uruguay can still ban tobacco altogether.
This is the equivalent of a frivolous lawsuit. It's part of the system, and it's okay. It gives transparency to the whole big companies (investors) and even bigger organizations (states) interactions, and tries to keep things equal and fair, all in all objective and unbiased.
Eventually Philip Morris will lose. (Though there might not be a loser-pays scheme in force for this case, but in general it's up to the treaty to establish the rules of arbitration, plus usually the tribunal itself has such powers, but in the future more and more cases will follow the UNCITRAL model, which do require the loser to pay for the costs of litigation.
https://books.google.com/books?id=h1H8Er1Y8X8C&pg=PA108&lpg=...
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Re: TTIP Documents Revealed
#57The estimated benefit of TTIP is 400,000 jobs and 0.5% GDP for the EU. Not much. Apparently, the few selected MoP in Germany who were given access to the drafts had a few hours to look at a 1000+ pages, in English legalese, with a dictionary but no internet access. Apparently, the drafts were full of certain spelling errors. The assumption was that they were personalized and injected on purpose such that photographs…
My support for most post-globalisation trade liberalisation treaties tends to be lukewarm. However, this can't really be called "not much". 400,000 jobs against a working population of ~300M is a decrease in unemployment by .13 percentage points. 0.5% increase in GDP is still ~70B that otherwise wouldn't be there.
Re: TTIP Documents Revealed
#58The estimated benefit of TTIP is 400,000 jobs and 0.5% GDP for the EU. Not much. Apparently, the few selected MoP in Germany who were given access to the drafts had a few hours to look at a 1000+ pages, in English legalese, with a dictionary but no internet access. Apparently, the drafts were full of certain spelling errors. The assumption was that they were personalized and injected on purpose such that photographs…
>The estimated benefit of TTIP is 400,000 jobs and 0.5% GDP for the EU. My support for most post-globalisation trade liberalisation treaties tends to be lukewarm. However, this can't really be called "not much". 400,000 jobs against a working population of ~300M is a decrease in unemployment by .13 percentage points. 0.5% increase in GDP is still ~70B that otherwise wouldn't be there.
Re: TTIP Documents Revealed
#59Earlier quoted context omitted.
That's a frivolous suit. They are grasping at straws. http://theconversation.com/big-tobacco-vs-australia-philip-m... Yes, it's a virtual threat.
Unfortunately, that doesn't seem to be entirely clear. The case you refer to in Australia was apparently thrown out because of some dubious changes to the company ownership arrangements that appeared to have been made just for the purposes of bringing a lawsuit, when the change in cigarette packaging rules was already public knowledge by that time. http://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2015/dec/18/austra...
Re: TTIP Documents Revealed
#60Earlier quoted context omitted.
Okay, first of all, that's bullshit. ISDS (Investor-State Dispute Settlement) is a sane concept. The implementation might have problems (for example closed courtroom "trials"), but it's not about protecting profits. It's about protecting equality and fairness for all before the law, and in case of States, holding them accountable to make fair and egalitarian laws. What's the typical example? A random Company invests…
This is an interesting article I remembered from a few months ago about the analogous provisions in a similar international trade deal, the Trans-Pacific Partnership. The legal experts commenting there don't seem to share your optimistic view of how these kinds of laws work in practice, so unless all of the issues they raise have been differently addressed in the TTIP wording, it appears there is cause for concern. h…
After all, the scope definition clause was a futile attempt from the beginning, since any law can be dressed up as environmental or "deemed appropriate" by the State. I don't really trust lawmakers on this, (nor corporations not to abuse these treaties as yet another venue to argue their bullshit or righteous grievance), let's a 3rd party decide this.
Because in case of Germany vs Vattenfall, when Germany was phasing out nuclear power, they should have calculated with the costs of this. You apply for a very costly permit, and boom, that sector has just been banned by the State, because irrational fear.
The same goes for the MFN (most favorable nation) clause. A state shouldn't pick and choose how it treats foreign companies as long as they act according to its laws, so it should place the same economic incentives and burdens on them.
Strange, for Mr Kahale or for the Guardian to not mention in November that the Award was Annuled in October in the Occidental vs Ecuador case.
Again, the concept is sane. Why require a fixed courtroom, when the important point is objectivity, and that parties select judges they trust who then in turn select the chair of the tribunal, so someone both parties' experts trust.
They usually do rely on (that is cite in similar cases, and usually similar cases reach similar outcomes) precedent, but since this is not a "common law" but a "civil law" (codified law) system, precedents are not binding. And there is a process for appeal, as seen in the Ecuador case. And yes, judges judge based on their opinion (interpretation) of the law. News at 11 :|
> The arbitrators can also be severely conflicted, says Kahale, because they may act as a judge one day and as a lawyer for a party the next.
Then don't pick them as your selected champion/judge. Duh. That's how Kahale is making his money, he runs a law firm representing countires. So they are usually on the States' side, maybe even sometimes lending a lawyer as a judge for a country.
> .. nor are they required to act like courts
Umm, they do? The treaty specifies the details, but most arbitration providers have very specific rules of procedure, just like courts.
tl;dr arbitration tribunals ain't saints, but they seem much more sane, egalitarian and fair, than a host country's high court (which are usually ideologically biased either traditionally or after the current regime stuffs it full of its trustees)