San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents • Hacker News Board

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#51

Post by dionidium » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:25 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #35

sliverstorm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So consider a nice, quaint neighborhood. Person A lives there. Person B wants to live there too, because it is so nice. Ok, let's say we double supply. All the houses are now either twice as high, or half as big, or maybe the trees were cut down and the bushes ripped out to make room. There's twice as many people & everything therein. Is it still the same nice neighborhood?

Was it the same neighborhood when you moved there? Things change, especially in the US. "The immaculate conception theory of your neighborhood’s origins": http://cityobservatory.org/the-immaculate-conception-theory-... And: if prices are going up that much, and you really want out, you can sell and move, to, say, Lakeview, Oregon.

I understand that people who buy into a neighborhood want that neighborhood to freeze in time and maintain for all eternity whatever character it had on the day they bought.

But we should be wholly unsympathetic to that view. It's a reasonable thing to wish for, but it's not a reasonable demand to give in to.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#52

Post by dionidium » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:27 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #5

Many problems with this article. "A software engineer in Austin earning $110,000 would need to make $195,000 in San Francisco to maintain the same quality of life" Would they? They point out the median in the bay area is $118k, but there's no indication that the median in Austin is $110k; maybe they just pulled that number out of thin air? They cite slowing tech employment growth in SF, but it seems clear that it's a…

I don't understand what you're pushing against. Do you dispute that an engineer's salary goes further in Austin than it does in San Francisco?

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#53

Post by peterwwillis » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:28 PM UTC

Apocryphon wrote: post #46

So are there any tech hubs right now that aren't dealing with issues of rent increases, gentrifications, and growing pains?

The DMV area? Its rents are fairly consistent, gentrification is pretty slow-and-steady, and the only growing pain I see is poor transportation options. But DMV is full of established companies and government work, not trendy startups. If San Francisco's high rents are due to startup culture, you may find more average rents where the tech isn't trendy.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#54

Post by Gratsby » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:30 PM UTC

I pay about that for rent - it's the most I've ever paid for housing by a long shot, and it regularly freaks me out. I just can't get used to it. The thing that gets me is that I'm barely paying the property taxes on the place I rent. The landlord isn't gouging me.

It's just the way it is here. Housing is so expensive because everyone wants to be here, and for good reason. This is the most thriving technical community in the entire world. We live different lifestyles as a result. It's not better or worse, just different.

It seems like there are a fair amount of people who come for 2-3 years and then go back to wherever it is that they came from, but I think the amount of people who actually leave the bay area for tech jobs in Seattle/Portland/LA is pretty slim. I'm sure it happens, but if there's an exodus happening I for one am completely unaware of it.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#55

Post by moheeb » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:32 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #20

100k wrote: post #6

Lots of people want to live in an urban setting. Build more urban neighborhoods, everywhere.

This is the answer. Deregulate housing/small businesse spaces/offices and let the market do its work. It's crazy the amount of regulation there is that pretty much dictates single family detached homes for large swaths of the country. Here in Bend, for instance, you must have a driveway with not one, but two parking spots. Land of the free indeed... http://marketurbanism.com/ Also, this book, although it's pretty hig…

"Here in Bend, for instance, you must have a driveway with not one, but two parking spots. Land of the free indeed..."

Where I live people don't leave any room for parking on their own property and all of the streets are completely jammed with cars, every inch. You don't hardly dare move your car if you've been able to find a spot.

Is that freer?

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#56

Post by ghaff » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:35 PM UTC

davidw wrote: post #41

sliverstorm wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, things change. But I contest the notion that adding more housing to a neighborhood is a magic bullet that will make everyone happy. Among many issues, the fundamental attractiveness of a particular neighborhood may be tied to low population density. In which case ripping down the neighborhood and rebuilding makes neither resident Person A nor prospective buyer Person B happy.

No, it won't, but it'll lead to the population as a whole being better off because it will allow more people to live in a very productive area, as well as leaving an out (sell and move) for those who can't stomach the thought of denser housing. Sooner or later, the US must confront the fact that not everyone can live in a single story ranch house with a big yard in an extremely desirable part of the country, without…

And a significant slice of the tech industry must confront the fact that not everyone in that industry can or should cram themselves into a narrow peninsula and a handful of other, mostly coastal, cities.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#57

Post by rqebmm » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:38 PM UTC

rconti wrote: post #5

Many problems with this article. "A software engineer in Austin earning $110,000 would need to make $195,000 in San Francisco to maintain the same quality of life" Would they? They point out the median in the bay area is $118k, but there's no indication that the median in Austin is $110k; maybe they just pulled that number out of thin air? They cite slowing tech employment growth in SF, but it seems clear that it's a…

I assume it's based on this report, which has the same numbers: http://get.hired.com/rs/348-IPO-044/images/Hired-State-of-Sa...

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#58

Post by Apocryphon » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:41 PM UTC

peterwwillis wrote: post #53

Apocryphon wrote: post #46

So are there any tech hubs right now that aren't dealing with issues of rent increases, gentrifications, and growing pains?

The DMV area? Its rents are fairly consistent, gentrification is pretty slow-and-steady, and the only growing pain I see is poor transportation options. But DMV is full of established companies and government work, not trendy startups. If San Francisco's high rents are due to startup culture, you may find more average rents where the tech isn't trendy.

Sorry, but I've never heard of that acronym for a metro before. Where's the DMV?

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#59

Post by maerF0x0 » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:42 PM UTC

dionidium wrote: post #45

sliverstorm wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So consider a nice, quaint neighborhood. Person A lives there. Person B wants to live there too, because it is so nice. Ok, let's say we double supply. All the houses are now either twice as high, or half as big, or maybe the trees were cut down and the bushes ripped out to make room. There's twice as many people & everything therein. Is it still the same nice neighborhood?

You're right, of course, but this sentiment amounts to little more than stomping your feet and wishing the world were different. As long as there is high demand, you can either build more or expect higher prices and more sprawl. I get that people don't like those choices, but that's what's on the table.

High local prices can be addressed with "distributed sprawl". ie growth in other cities.

Re: San Francisco Tech Firms See Workers Flee from $4,500 Rents

#60

Post by maerF0x0 » Tue, Apr 05, 2016, 5:43 PM UTC

cmurf wrote: post #10

simook wrote: post #2

Portland resident here. What this article doesn't cover, is now locals are victim of gentrification. Rent prices are almost 2x, out of state buyers are throwing all cash offers on houses, and overall housing supply is low... I'm sure the commercial market is just as bad. Interesting times.

Same in Denver. Realtor told me 1/4 of properties don't make the MLS, they're bought with cash before they can get listed.

Realtors alway say things like that, they're impossible to prove false and gives a sense of urgency. Realtors make money the more that houses change hands, and make money faster the faster they change hands.