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Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

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Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#51
post #46

In my experience, writing (or any other art) is maybe the most downwardly-mobile profession there is. The supply of artists far outstrips the demand for art, and getting your first job often depends on proximity to industry gatekeepers. I can't speak specifically for the publishing industry, but in film and television people tend to get writing jobs through personal connections. The four paths I've seen for people wh…

Serious question: Do you feel that society should be re-adjusted/obligated in some way to make more upwardly-mobile paths for writers?

I don't know; do you feel like the world doesn't have enough writers?

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#52
post #46

In my experience, writing (or any other art) is maybe the most downwardly-mobile profession there is. The supply of artists far outstrips the demand for art, and getting your first job often depends on proximity to industry gatekeepers. I can't speak specifically for the publishing industry, but in film and television people tend to get writing jobs through personal connections. The four paths I've seen for people wh…

Serious question: Do you feel that society should be re-adjusted/obligated in some way to make more upwardly-mobile paths for writers?

It already has. The internet has made distributing and selling text content thousands of times easier.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#53
post #26
post #14

The topic itself is worth discussing. However I'm not actually sure why this specific article was the one being picked for a second chance. It's one long life story (stories?), and there is nothing in it supporting either the title or subtitle. Yes, her upbringing was bad, but I wanted to know what happened personally to her after graduating that she's where she is now. Or even better: what exactly could have helped…

Yeah I agree. It is more difficult to leave poverty if you are born into it, but the choice of the word "myth" was a poor one. I also would have liked to hear more about her degrees. What were they in? Why were they not useful in today's current world? I think this could have gave us much greater insight. Also, the making fun of healthy foods turned me off a little because I always choose healthier options if they ar…

She doesn't mention what her degrees are in, which I'm quite sure is deliberate: she doesn't want a bunch of people writing to say, "well, of course you are picking kale, you studied {creative writing | English literature | etc.}"

Her proposition is that having any degree entitles one to a middle class lifestyle.

This is an archaic notion based on the economic situation in the US before the 1960s, before the government began subsidizing mass higher education. Bachelor's degrees were expensive and rare then, so that actually worked.

Now, we have millions of people with non-marketable bachelor's degrees picking kale for a living, because nobody told them that the economic situation has shifted radically since then and bachelor's degrees don't guarantee you a nice job anymore.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#54

After reading that article, I realize how much truth there is to the old adage that, with a good article, you delete more than you save. This article feels like an interesting and thought provoking topic, but if it's there, it's hard to pinpoint while wading through the biography of half the author's family. Twenty three paragraphs but no message.

The message is that it's massively unfair that someone with a college degree cannot find a job that grants a middle class lifestyle.

She entered higher education believing that having "a degree" (in any generic subject) would do that, and it didn't.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#55
I think it's interesting that we're 44 comments in and nobody has commented on how race fits into this.

She sees herself as someone working her way up into a freelance writing career. Her customers, her bosses and her family view her as the kind of person unlikely to do anything more than what her parents and grandparents did: bounce around through low-wage, low-prestige jobs like Instacart their entire working life.

When everyone around you assumes you won't make it higher, it's hard not to wonder if they're right. And society assumes African-Americans are much less likely to achieve career success. [1]

[1] See http://www.nber.org/digest/sep03/w9873.html for instance: "Race, the authors add, also affects the reward to having a better resume. Whites with higher quality resumes received 30 percent more callbacks than whites with lower quality resumes. But the positive impact of a better resume for those with African-American names was much smaller."

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#56
post #55

I think it's interesting that we're 44 comments in and nobody has commented on how race fits into this. She sees herself as someone working her way up into a freelance writing career. Her customers, her bosses and her family view her as the kind of person unlikely to do anything more than what her parents and grandparents did: bounce around through low-wage, low-prestige jobs like Instacart their entire working life.…

Nobody has commented on how race fits into this because race is entirely irrelevant to the theme of the article.

Her skin color is not relevant to her picking kale for a living. She's picking kale because she got two college degrees in non-marketable subjects, not because she's black.

Not every topic contains a hidden narrative of latent racist oppression just waiting for an overeducated postmodernist to come along and deconstruct it, even if it does involve people of a visibly different ethnic background than their employer.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#58

The headline ("Two College Degrees Later, I Was Still Picking Kale For Rich People") is a statement of disappointed entitlement, of outrage over a belief that some implicit social contract has not been fulfilled. The reality is that just having "a degree" in a generic sense is no longer the magical ticket to a middle class lifestyle that it was in 1960. It's become too common and is no longer much of a differentiator…

I agree with you with one caveat: there really was a social contract in place that said something along the lines of "Finish third level and you'll walk into a job thats better than flipping burgers". That contract has been broken. I think it was stupid to begin with but it was a message very clearly sent from generations, society, government that went before. As you say, it still is. So does the writer have reason t…

> there really was a social contract in place that said something along the lines of "Finish third level and you'll walk into a job thats better than flipping burgers"

Was this ever true for a Masters in Creative Writing? My understanding is that this class of degree has always been a social signal for "my family is so wealthy, I will never need to work."

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#59
post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did people stop hiring plumbers? It's difficult in North America to become a millionaire, but it's pretty trivial to escape poverty. What I often find is people would rather be poor than sell their skills to the highest bidder, eg. I know welders who refuse $60/hr jobs because they dislike the oil industry. Or train for jobs that actually pay, like plumbing.

I don't know what it's like the US, but in the UK becoming a plumber is a long way from "pretty trivial." http://www.theguardian.com/money/2010/may/15/fast-track-plum...

Here it's not difficult, unless you want a union plumbing job. The reason why becomming a union plumber is difficult, say for San Francisco local ?, is getting every question on an easy test right. Plus there's a lot of people applying to take the test. Those Union plumbers are paid I believe over $100/HR.

The easy way is just call yourself a Plumber, and put an ad on CL. Something like what that very conservative guy did--what's his name--"Joe the Plumber". In all honestly, these guys get the job done. I wouldn't want them installing hydronic heating though.

The other way is get a licence through the state. You can get a general contractor's licence, or a Plumber's licence. It's easy. There's schools that will walk you through the paperwork, and an easy test. You don't need the school. They are a ripoff.

If your young, and have kids, a union plumbing job is great. Non-union plumbing is a horrid job. The only one making a real living us the owner.

I was in the San Franciso electrical union and it was a good deal. I didn't stick around. Just found construction very boring, but it paid well.

If anyone reads this who's thinking about going into a union trade, I'll pass this along. Construction is construction. Stay away from non-union construction. If you are going to be a construction worker go union, and try to get into these unions in this order. The order I'm picking us quality of work, and pay.

Elevator mechanics union(might have changed name?) Electrical union local 6 if in San Francisco. Plumbers union, or HVAC union(forget the name)

Stay away from carpenters union, unless you get into the finish carpenters uinion(if still around?) Stay away from roofing, concrete, insulation, and painting--if you can? If you really want to go into one of those trades make sure to get into the union.

Non-union construction is right above not working. "Oh, but I see Tom, and Horhe, and they seem happy?". I don't know how these guys are happy. I've worked non-union, and it paid retail. The conditions were horrid.

To anyone against union, do a non-union construction job just one day. Just one day. Look at what you are paid. Then look at the house that the owner of the non-union lives in. He usually has houses, and he bought each of his kids their first house.

Hands down worst job I ever had was at Bradley Electric. My father went through a union apprenticeship program with this guy--if he's still around. He opened a very successful non-union shop, and would hire desperate guys, at horrid wages.

Re: Buying groceries for rich people, I realized upward mobility is largely a myth

#60
post #58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I agree with you with one caveat: there really was a social contract in place that said something along the lines of "Finish third level and you'll walk into a job thats better than flipping burgers". That contract has been broken. I think it was stupid to begin with but it was a message very clearly sent from generations, society, government that went before. As you say, it still is. So does the writer have reason t…

> there really was a social contract in place that said something along the lines of "Finish third level and you'll walk into a job thats better than flipping burgers" Was this ever true for a Masters in Creative Writing? My understanding is that this class of degree has always been a social signal for "my family is so wealthy, I will never need to work."

With the advent of government subsidized mass higher education in the US starting in the 1960s, that changed. Many high school teachers and college professors began heavily encouraging their idealistic, young, poor students to "follow their passion" and study creative writing and other non-marketable subjects.

This group feels that it is vulgar and crass to even mention money or economics in the context of art or pure academics, much less integrate it into your life's plans, thus setting almost all of their naive students up for massive disappointment when they graduate with a huge pile of student loan debt and no jobs available except picking kale for rich people for barely above minimum wage.

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