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Do We Still Need Prisons?

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Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#51

Post by jasonjei »

beeboop wrote: post #44
jasonjei wrote: post #27

My question is why do we still punish people with computer or financial or corruption crimes in prison for long terms? Yes, I understand some price should be paid, but extremely long prison terms for non-violent crimes such as hacking computer systems seem strange. In fact, some of these wrongdoers actually are very intelligent, and having them make amends with their intellect could be a just way to perform community…

If you remove the risk of prison for nonviolent offenders, you're creating a world where large businesses and their owners will no longer care whether they do something illegal, they will only care about the risks of getting caught versus the potential profit to be made. You turn the criminal justice system into a risk analysis that happens in some board room. There will be no real detriment to rich people for breaki…

I understand there has to be some price to be paid. My question is the length. Is the term deterministic or is it arbitrary? I have never really understood why some non-violent crimes are sentenced with 10 years in prison versus 200 years in prison. For example, a self-victim crime of consuming drugs is punished harshly in Singapore.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#52

Post by sametmax »

cousin_it wrote: post #25
onion2k wrote: post #12

There's a very interesting thought experiment devised by the human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smitg and outlined at the end of the excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Quoting from the book; “Let me ask you three questions,” he said. “And then you’ll see it my way. Question One: What’s the worst thing that you have ever done to someone? It’s okay. You don’t have to confess it out loud. Que…

> Should we really be putting someone in prison for burglary when there are people who rip millions of people off with legal price gouging or break up a family by cheating? I agree that cheating usually hurts more than burglary. However, it's not just a question of how harmful it is, but also how many people feel the urge to do it. We can mostly deal with burglary by criminalizing it, but criminalizing cheating would…

And again cheating is much greyer area than killing. The marriage, the wedding, being faithful are very artificial social constructs. I for once, would never, ever want somebody to be punished because she cheated on me. I may not like it, but I don't think the state has anything to do with it.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#53

Post by gist »

chillingeffect wrote: post #8

Spoken like a truly out of touch academic. Here's an incident that took place last week in a town near me: A man with a beer and a condom approached a random couple on the sidewalk and declared his intention to have sex with the woman. When she declined, two of his brothers and a fourth man appeared from behind a bush, beat the man into submission and dragged the woman back to their apartment. They barricaded the doo…

> Spoken like a truly out of touch academic.

I agree.

Deterrent factor is huge. Most if not almost all people fear having to spend time in prison. And there is no question that it guides their behavior. And the people who don't fear being in prison don't need less of a reason to be out there. Prison is punishment. No way to compare that type of loss of freedom with home detention.

For all the crime committed now, there is no question that crime would increase if the punishment weren't viewed as taking away a liberty in a consequential way.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#54

Post by IsaacL »

onion2k wrote: post #12

There's a very interesting thought experiment devised by the human rights lawyer Clive Stafford Smitg and outlined at the end of the excellent book "So You've Been Publicly Shamed" by Jon Ronson. Quoting from the book; “Let me ask you three questions,” he said. “And then you’ll see it my way. Question One: What’s the worst thing that you have ever done to someone? It’s okay. You don’t have to confess it out loud. Que…

One of the most damaging things Clive Stafford Smith has done is to give public support for Moazzem Begg, who was almost certainly a high-ranking member of al Qaeda (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Moazzam_Begg). (Sure, Begg should have gotten a fair trial -- he would have gone to court had the charges not been dropped, probably because the intelligence services didn't want to reveal all the intel they had gathered on him and his associates).

In every human society in history, there have been people who choose to rob, rape and kill. There's no pleasant way to deal with such people, but it is the role of the state to deal with them, or you have anarchy. It isn't the role of the state to prevent "emotional damage", "bad wives" or "bankers".

Stafford Smith's position seems to be a twisted version of Christian morality where all problems are caused by meanness. Since the justice system is an institutionalised form of meanness, it must be wicked -- indeed, it's probably responsible for crime and terrorism.

This is a really evil worldview.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#55

Post by maus42 »

lossolo wrote: post #10

I think author forget that prison ALSO means that we are isolating someone dangerous, someone that is dangerous for society, that's why we lock him up. There will be no other solution/place for murderers etc. Period. I really would like that authors of that kind of articles go to areas where there is a lot of gang activities and live there for couple of months. I am sure they would change their mind.

Are most of people locked up murderous maniacs or other constant danger to rest of us?

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#57

Post by noir_lord »

bye_amzn wrote: post #38
noir_lord wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you got downvoted, I'm pretty left wing but people who pull the kind of shit in that story really do belong in prison, it doesn't have to be a harsh american-style prison but it has to be secure, some people just shouldn't be in society because of the threat they pose to the rights of others. It's not just about punishment it's about protecting law-abiding members of society.

> Not sure why you got downvoted https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Appeal_to_emotion

Not sure it counts as an appeal to emotion, he pretty accurately stated the facts from the article posted down thread, if reading it makes you emotional that's on the reader.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#58

Post by mc32 »

philipov wrote: post #33
mc32 wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think this kind of reductive thinking, if taken into more political and behavioral extreme areas works. Lets try this mental exercise, what is the physical damage to me if I get raped? In extreme cases one could get infected with a potentially deadly STD, or if a woman, onr may become pregnant, but in many cases at the physical level, it's not all that different from regular sex between people. The main diffe…

The error in thinking here is your equivocation of the emotional trauma of having your groceries stolen with being raped. Your conclusion is extreme, but it is not a logical conclusion.

The mental trauma of the crimes is stronger in some crimes than others but it still exists so to say, we'll restore to is a bit naive.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#59

Post by svachalek »

jasonjei wrote: post #27

My question is why do we still punish people with computer or financial or corruption crimes in prison for long terms? Yes, I understand some price should be paid, but extremely long prison terms for non-violent crimes such as hacking computer systems seem strange. In fact, some of these wrongdoers actually are very intelligent, and having them make amends with their intellect could be a just way to perform community…

At least here in the U.S., the odds of getting any punishment at all for "white collar" crime seems very low, and even if it happens, long prison terms are not likely. It seems the main thing holding people back is cultural, not fear of punishment.

That sort of system is very biased towards the upper classes though. Those who have access to the education and resources and connections to pull off this sort of crime end up punished lightly if at all, while those of similar character who are stuck robbing liquor stores are locked away for years, even though the overall damage they inflict may be minor in comparison.

Re: Do We Still Need Prisons?

#60

Post by noir_lord »

douche wrote: post #48
noir_lord wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Not sure why you got downvoted, I'm pretty left wing but people who pull the kind of shit in that story really do belong in prison, it doesn't have to be a harsh american-style prison but it has to be secure, some people just shouldn't be in society because of the threat they pose to the rights of others. It's not just about punishment it's about protecting law-abiding members of society.

There are still crimes where the punishment should be a short rope and a tall tree. Forty years of a roof over your head, a bed to sleep in, and three squares a day is insane.

Yes and No, I'd sooner my taxes pay to keep someone away from society who needs to be than pay to execute them even if it costs more, I'd sooner living that society even if it costs more.

Fortunately where I am the death penalty is a settled issue.

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