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Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

theatlantic.com

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Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#51

Post by cableshaft »

spiralpolitik wrote: post #38

Most intern resumes that I've seen recently have Java, Python, and Javascript on them. A few add C/C++ to those. I've only seen one with anything approaching a functional language (OCaml). Personally I think Python, Java, or Javascript are good places to start coding. Python has the slight edge because there are a lot of good educational kits (Raspberry Pi as an example) that really make learning to code fun although…

I have some functional programming experience, but I've never put it on the resume because I have never seen any company request experience in it, so it seems like a waste of space to put it on there. So that could explain why you never usually see it on a resume.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#52

Post by jMyles »

msellout wrote: post #47
condud wrote: post #40

> Is it the lack of fresh, organic food in inner-cities? Ha ha ha ha you think people are held back because their food isn't organic? Ha ha ha ha ha!

Let me rephrase that for you: "While fresh food might be a factor, conventionally grown food would be approximately as nutritious as organic."

Why do you say this? Organic food has serious, measurable benefits. The differences between organic and orthodox varies across food items, of course, but for some it is a very serious difference.

http://www.ewg.org/foodnews/summary.php

I surmise that your contention is based on the Stanford study? Have you ever actually read the study yourself? Do you realize that its methodology is widely regarded as fundamentally flawed? Start here for a good review:

http://www.tfrec.wsu.edu/pdfs/P2566.pdf

...and of course, the Stanford study is just one. Many other studies, which I and many others assert are of a superior design, have come to the opposite conclusion. This one is particularly compelling (sorry for the wordpress.com link, it's the only full text I can find online):

https://donamarianadoces.files.wordpress.com/2012/07/nutriti...

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#53

Post by jMyles »

forgetsusername wrote: post #43
jMyles wrote: post #34

I usually try to temper my judgments on these sorts of articles, but this is patently ridiculous. Is it the police and prison systems that are endangering another generation of black and brown youth? Is it the lack of fresh, organic food in inner-cities? Maybe it's the fact that black and brown parents have, at a disgustingly disproportionate rate, been taken away from their families for possession of plants and chem…

> No, no, it's not that stuff Maybe it's the combination of many potential social problems, and the author is writing about one specifically? I don't see anywhere it's stated that this is the biggest issue facing youth of colour.

I'm disagreeing on both ends: 1) I don't think Java and Javascript are bad languages to learn (nor even that the matter of which languages to learn is particularly important), and 2) I also think that systemic racism is a big enough concern as to completely obfuscate any effect that learning Java and Javascript (to the temporary exclusion of other languages) might have.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#54

Post by pech0rin »

condud wrote: post #40

> Is it the lack of fresh, organic food in inner-cities? Ha ha ha ha you think people are held back because their food isn't organic? Ha ha ha ha ha!

People are held back by food deserts which limit access to fresh produce be it organic or otherwise.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#55

Post by cableshaft »

nmrm2 wrote: post #21
jimbokun wrote: post #16

Sounds more to me like a bunch of computer science professors trying to market 4 year degrees and 10s (or 100s) of thousands of dollars in debt to lower income African Americans, with questionable benefits in terms of employment outcomes.

> computer science professors generally speaking couldn't care less about the marketability of their degree programs among the general public, much less the lower income general public. Enrollment numbers just aren't important enough currency in higher ed to devote enough effort to get the president and a bunch of celebrities on board. Deans, maybe. But not run-of-the-mill professors. And even then, almost all CS pro…

I had a CS professor that said that during the dot com heyday they were seeing hundreds of cs majors every year, and it was a mess as most of them didn't belong and were just there because it was pretty much guaranteed work for high pay and keeping up with everything was a pain in the ass.

But then the dot bust happened and enrollment went back down to much more reasonable numbers, and she was a lot happier for it.

So yeah, I doubt professors are the ones pushing too hard for this.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#56

Post by cfmcdonald »

jMyles wrote: post #52
msellout wrote: post #47

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Let me rephrase that for you: "While fresh food might be a factor, conventionally grown food would be approximately as nutritious as organic."

Why do you say this? Organic food has serious, measurable benefits. The differences between organic and orthodox varies across food items, of course, but for some it is a very serious difference. http://www.ewg.org/foodnews/summary.php I surmise that your contention is based on the Stanford study? Have you ever actually read the study yourself? Do you realize that its methodology is widely regarded as fundamentally f…

From the study you cited:

"Under the same assumptions, the 12% increase caused by switching to organic fruits and vegetables would correspond to an increase in life expectancy of, on average, 17 days for women and 25 days for men."

This is

1) all based on a very tenuous model, not on a study of actual health outcomes ("The calculations behind these estimates depend on estimates of the relative risks of disease incidences according to fruit and vegetable consumption, most of which are known only with substantial uncertainty (Veerman et al., 2006).")

2) assumes a linear response (if a 1% increase in vitamins increases life expectancy by X, a 10% increase will increaes it by 10X), which also seems dubious

3) assumes that the input data about the nutritiousness of organic food is correct.

And it's still a tiny effect. The life expectancy at birth for men in the Netherlands (the source of the model) is 81 years, or 29565 days, so it's a claimed 0.08% increase in life expectancy.

Moreover, if organic food had a large effect on health we would expect today's rich kids to be substantially healthier than those of my generation, who ate Wonder Bread and Jif, but I have seen no such evidence.

But then I am deeply skeptical of nutrition science in general.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#57

Post by elipsey »

condud wrote: post #40

> Is it the lack of fresh, organic food in inner-cities? Ha ha ha ha you think people are held back because their food isn't organic? Ha ha ha ha ha!

What if I said I think people are held back because their food isn't food?

Two liters of Mountain Dew and a large bag of Fritos will satisfy our caloric requirement for an entire day for about three dollars, but compared to eating actual food, it will make people with diabetes risk insulin resistant, people with mental health risk crazier (e.g., lack of nutritional precursors to serotonin production, etc), and everyone else fatter and less energetic.

I live miles from the grocery store, and 100 yards from a convenience store, and I don't own a car. Lots of people in my neighborhood don't have the time or resources I do to go shopping. I think this puts some of them at a real productivity disadvantage. If they're poor enough, I'm paying for it too, so I would like to see the situation improve if possible.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#58

Post by DawkinsGawd »

seltzered_ wrote: post #11

Could this also be confused with a less condescending term - like Anil Dash's concept of "blue collar programmer"? ( http://anildash.com/2012/10/the-blue-collar-coder.html ) (Or Reginald Braythewathe's term of " Clerical engineering work" )

I am very much torn between this on multiple levels. On the most superficial level, I do not want development to become "blue collar" because I am a developer and don't want to think of myself as blue collar. With my personal bias out of the way:

Do you think it's possible for development to be the new manufacturing? I have been saying that it is for years now - but I don't know if I truly believe it or not. There is a large academic distinction between coding and manufacturing. Solid middle class manufacturing jobs were mostly mindless monkey work. Screw this on, put that in the hole it fits in, etc. The more I work on this internal Java ERP/CRM sites the more I think it is monkey work too, but when I take a step back I realize that I have been programming since I was 10 (16 years), I have a bachelors degree in computer science, I have several years of working experience and after work I go home and code. The work generally seems like turn key work to me, but I'm not sure if that is true. Basically I'm saying that I don't necessarily believe the masses are smart enough to be developers even for shitty intranet applications

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#59

Post by DawkinsGawd »

DawkinsGawd wrote: post #58
seltzered_ wrote: post #11

Could this also be confused with a less condescending term - like Anil Dash's concept of "blue collar programmer"? ( http://anildash.com/2012/10/the-blue-collar-coder.html ) (Or Reginald Braythewathe's term of " Clerical engineering work" )

I am very much torn between this on multiple levels. On the most superficial level, I do not want development to become "blue collar" because I am a developer and don't want to think of myself as blue collar. With my personal bias out of the way: Do you think it's possible for development to be the new manufacturing? I have been saying that it is for years now - but I don't know if I truly believe it or not. There is…

P.S. The articles is beyond stupid. I use to love technology because it was apolitical and was never muddled with things like "race" and "micro aggression". It seems like every tech article I read now has something to say about minorities or under represented youth or woman. Give it a rest already. Anyone can start coding. All you need is notepad.

I do appreciate how the article makes a distinction between computer science and programming. We already have a computer science education in school. Its called math.

Re: Will the Push for Coding Lead to ‘Technical Ghettos’?

#60

Post by jMyles »

cfmcdonald wrote: post #56
jMyles wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do you say this? Organic food has serious, measurable benefits. The differences between organic and orthodox varies across food items, of course, but for some it is a very serious difference. http://www.ewg.org/foodnews/summary.php I surmise that your contention is based on the Stanford study? Have you ever actually read the study yourself? Do you realize that its methodology is widely regarded as fundamentally f…

From the study you cited: "Under the same assumptions, the 12% increase caused by switching to organic fruits and vegetables would correspond to an increase in life expectancy of, on average, 17 days for women and 25 days for men." This is 1) all based on a very tenuous model, not on a study of actual health outcomes ("The calculations behind these estimates depend on estimates of the relative risks of disease incide…

> But then I am deeply skeptical of nutrition science in general.

Yeah, me too. And I acknowledge that these studies don't inspire confidence about health results, but I do think it's clear that organic food (especially animal products) is very much distinguishable from orthodox food. And it's reasonable to be concerned about some of the chemicals present in some orthodox food but absent in organic food.

> Moreover, if organic food had a large effect on health we would expect today's rich kids to be substantially healthier than those of my generation, who ate Wonder Bread and Jif, but I have seen no such evidence.

I'm not sure that's true - in order to properly assert this, you'd need to know that Wonder Bread and Jif had substantial quantities of pesticides that are prohibited under an organic label at the time you ate them.

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