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Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails

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Re: Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails

#51
post #36
post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It depends. With rather new still evolving ecosystems, every update is welcome. Also the security updates are important for OS and browsers. But with stagnating platforms, like Windows where tipping point was Windows XP (or Windows 7), it goes downhill with every update since then, the bubble bursted, now the user is the product, and your files get screened and searched by the platform owners. You can run software fr…

No, its not an arbitrary decision - there are some pretty decent reasons why Microsoft declined to support running 16 bit apps via NTVDM/wowexec - virtual 8086 mode isn't supported in long mode - now certainly, they could have ported the functionality from NT 4 they used to get NTVDM working on non x86 processors (it included an i486 emulator) - but to what end, realistically, how many people are still running 16-bit…

> unless you've been very forward looking from the start (see IBM System Z)

Can you elaborate? System Z always looks curious, but I don't think that many people who aren't involved with mainframes professionally had a chance to even look at it

Re: Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails

#53
post #18

It's POP3. Seriously, one of the easiest to understand mailbox protocols ever. HOW could Microsoft stuff up something like this so badly? Look, I know that mistakes can be made. But in this case, I just can't think of a single excuse that would be satisfactory.

Look what Microsoft did with *.odt (OpenOffice/LibreOffice) compatibility. Now they show bogus security and compatibility warning dialogs if you open or save such a file. Look what they do with IMAP support in Outlook 2016. Pre-loading just the "Subject" (a feature supported since 1990s) got dropped, instead of the whole email incl attachments is downloaded. And now we learn POP3 got crippled too. The common Microsof…

Except it's almost certainly not up to me.

Oh, you use Autodesk products, you'll need Windows for that.

"We created a shared Word doc / PowerPoint in OneDrive for the report" - only editable with MS Office.

My choice is work or no work.

Re: Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails

#55
post #3

It's POP3. Seriously, one of the easiest to understand mailbox protocols ever. HOW could Microsoft stuff up something like this so badly? Look, I know that mistakes can be made. But in this case, I just can't think of a single excuse that would be satisfactory.

Well, it has nothing to do with the protocol. Like you said, POP3 is dead simple. This is within logic that sits above the protocol. That said, yeah, this is something they definitely should be testing. The fact that the article updated yesterday with a new knowledge base article and the status of the problem says they are looking into it, means they've been notified but not yet fixed it. If they haven't stopped that…

Somewhat related: LiveMail doesn't work reliably with Yahoo Mail.

I was trying to fix email for a friend recently. Her UK ISP's email service is a rebranded Yahoo Mail account.

It works fine on her iPad, but LiveMail in Win7 (she doesn't want Win10) regularly chokes on attachments.

Turns out LiveMail can't cope if there's spam in a Yahoo trash account. And this bug has been around for years now.

Not sure if incompetence, corporate dementia, or some nefarious plot to get users to switch to

Either way, I suggested she switch to Gmail.

Re: Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails

#57

> UPDATE 02/26/2016: ... TL;DR: Disable automatic updates... That's just good advice for dealing with modern software, for which fixes, breakage, and feature churn are all mixed in a single awful stream. "Newer" does not mean "better."

As someone who recently had Android 6.0 available for their phone and decided to upgrade, exactly this Some genius at Google decided to make the phone vibrate and beep every time there is an open WiFi spot, or you need to sign up to a known one Really This kind of crap (not the only one) almost justifies the extra price for iOS

[deleted]

Re: Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails

#58
From a client standpoint, POP is not actually trivial.

The main problem with POP is that unless you do something clever, determining the changes in the mailbox from time t0 to time t1 is both conceptually difficult and computationally expensive. This is because generic POP has no concept of a message UID, so there's no principled way to diff between states. In a very real sense, this means that POP is somewhat broken for the most important use case for the client: syncing to server changes.

The UIDL extension adds a "UID" but it's just an MD5 hash of the contents -- meaning that multiple copies of a message appear to be the same message. And you can ask for just the headers -- which means you can get the message-id header -- but this is still very expensive to do repeatedly (say, every 5 minutes) on a 100,000 message POP store. And you can't ask for just the Message-Id header, which would fix the problem.

Even if you have valid UIDs -- which you won't -- you still have to run a diff algorithm. Typical dynamic programming algorithms are O(N^2), which obviously sucks big time for a 100,000 message POP store.

For Inky (http://inky.com) we use a clever linear-time diff algorithm based in part on [Meyers 86]: An O(ND) Difference Algorithm and Its Variations. [Burns & Long 97] A Linear Time, Constant Space Differencing Algorithm is also a good treatment. But I know Outlook and Thunderbird both use non-linear-time algorithms to diff, so "leave messages on server" gets increasingly (non-linearly) expensive as the mailbox size grows on the server.

A few other points on comments made in this thread:

- POP is still widely used. In the US, for example, Comcast has finally migrated to IMAP, but Verizon is still POP only.

- POP is, from the server standpoint, a very simple protocol, and it is highly amenable to automated testing, as others here have pointed out. For our own testing we generate both patterned and random mailbox modification sequences, then have the test client cooperate with the test server to ensure that the client has (independently) correctly determined what's happened to the (test) mailbox. This is a perfect example of a situation where investing significant effort into automated testing pays off -- and where a TDD approach to development would also work well.

Re: Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails

#59
post #18

It's POP3. Seriously, one of the easiest to understand mailbox protocols ever. HOW could Microsoft stuff up something like this so badly? Look, I know that mistakes can be made. But in this case, I just can't think of a single excuse that would be satisfactory.

Look what Microsoft did with *.odt (OpenOffice/LibreOffice) compatibility. Now they show bogus security and compatibility warning dialogs if you open or save such a file. Look what they do with IMAP support in Outlook 2016. Pre-loading just the "Subject" (a feature supported since 1990s) got dropped, instead of the whole email incl attachments is downloaded. And now we learn POP3 got crippled too. The common Microsof…

> except in the expensive LTSB license version

It's so sad, because LTSB is quite a good system. My home system was eligible for Windows 10 upgrade, which I did - then loaded LTSB as soon as I found out about it and replaced it, so my conscience is somehow clear about running it.

It reminds me of good old Windows 7 days and updates aren't breaking the system weekly.

You still have to disable various telemetry crap though.

Re: Outlook 2016’s New POP3 Bug Deletes Your Emails

#60
post #10
post #7

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I still use Visual Source Safe for my personal projects. It's never failed me in 20 years. Right click, check out, right click checkin. Perfect every time. 1st reaction: Horrified that you are still using VSS. 2nd reaction: Was that if it does what you need it to, well, then, who am I to judge? It doesn't matter whether the tool was created yesterday or 20 years ago. 3rd reaction: Does it really do what you need it…

This is horrifying indeed. I cannot imagine any reason to go on using VSS other than a very, very robust aversion to learning anything new. And yes, VSS is very buggy, although the bugs might not show up for a single-user environment always following the happy path.

other than a very, very robust aversion to learning anything new.

I may have to borrow that line at my day job sometimes.

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