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German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

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Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#51

> The interior ministry spokesman defended the government's decision, saying "basically we now have the skills in an area where we did not have this kind of skill." The program was already endorsed by members of the government in autumn 2015, the ministry said. By this do they mean they've only now just found and hired someone that can build this program? Is that what they mean by "skill"?

I think they used the German word "Fähigkeit" which better translates to something like ability (of an intelligence service).

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#52
post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

I guess you are not involved in politics? There is a lot of evidence that we should be very afraid of the state if you look at Verfassungsschutz activities. They are monitoring a lot of people who oppose policy backed by the state and there is a precedent in which “opposition members” were banned from state official jobs (teachers, ...) just a few years ago. Opposition member can mean for example being involved in an…

And not just a few years ago, this is an ongoing issue. For instance, a government minister in Hessen tries to ensure that this politician from AfD (in opposition to the ruling CDU/SDP coalition) should not be able to work as a teacher.

http://www.focus.de/politik/videos/er-hatte-sport-und-geschi...

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#53

It sounds like big news but I'm pretty sure that US intelligence is laughing at this kind of software... Germany is very bad on spying on its own citizens (this is by design, e.g. the privacy laws) in comparison to the USA which I think is even better on spying German citizens than their own government ;)

I'm sure if the German gov really needs to know something they ask the Americans.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#54

> The interior ministry spokesman defended the government's decision, saying "basically we now have the skills in an area where we did not have this kind of skill." The program was already endorsed by members of the government in autumn 2015, the ministry said. By this do they mean they've only now just found and hired someone that can build this program? Is that what they mean by "skill"?

I think they used the German word "Fähigkeit" which better translates to something like ability (of an intelligence service).

"capability" would probably be the best translation of "Fähigkeit"

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#55

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think they used the German word "Fähigkeit" which better translates to something like ability (of an intelligence service).

"capability" would probably be the best translation of "Fähigkeit"

Ah, yes thanks, that was the word I was looking for. This is the closest translation which covers the meaning in this context.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#56
post #15

I doubt they have capable programmers working for them. A few years ago the Chaos Computer Club discovered the 'predecessor' version of this State-Trojan ("Bundestrojaner"). This version was a perfect example what happens when you _want_ to have such a software but your programmers _suck_ at even most basic things (like establishing a working traffic-encryption). Here's the video (in German): https://youtu.be/zAV-hTp…

>We shouldn't fear their 'capabilities' but rather their lack of knowledge that'll ultimately lead to 'open systems' which can later be exploited by other criminals.

We should fear their intent. Their capabilities are beside the point -- they could hire the very best tomorrow if they found they need to.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Source please? Anecdotally speaking, FB & TW are doing an awful job of complying with Merkel's "supposed orders" as I see people dissing her and her policies esp. immigration whether for or against all the time and in German too.

http://www.cnbc.com/2015/09/27/angela-merkel-caught-on-hot-m... On the sidelines of a United Nations luncheon on Saturday, Merkel was caught on a hot mic pressing Zuckerberg about social media posts about the wave of Syrian refugees entering Germany, the publication reported. The Facebook CEO was overheard responding that "we need to do some work" on curtailing anti-immigrant posts about the refugee crisis. "Are you…

It's hardly a secret, the government is very open about curtailing hate speech on social networks. It's not a huge step in a country where everybody is used to Holocaust denial being a crime (much to your chagrin, I'm sure).

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#58
post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is not true at all. The German Government is asking Facebook to delete comments which could be categorized as hate speech ("Volksverhetzung" in German). These comments are not "negative of her policies", they are calling on people to kill, gas or otherwise attack refugees, politicans or journalists. They are simply asking Facebook to comply with German law. Some comments comparable to those in question are curat…

When a state defines 'hate speech' laws they're really defining 'thought criminal' laws. Merkle and co. are trying to manipulate public opinion through the destruction of contrarian thought from the public realm.

When someone incites people to attack Cologne mayor Henriette Reker in an attempt to kill her for her positive views and policies regarding immigration and refugees, I'd classify this speech as "hate speech & call for violence" and should be dealt with swiftly and firmly in accordance with the law.

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#59

Are we headed for civil war in cyber space? This is the kind of bs that starts to wake people up.

It's been a cold civil war for many years. Encryption - and communication technology in general - is a power usable by anybody, not just established institutions.

As Dan Geer explains:

    In other words, [c]onvergence is an inevitable consequence of the
    very power of cyberspace in and of itself. [I]ncreasingly powerful,
    location independent technology in the hands of the many will tend
    to force changes in the distribution of power.  In fact, that is
    the central theme of this essay -- that the power that is growing
    in the net, per se, will soon surpass the ability of our existing
    institutions to modify it in any meaningful way, so either the net
    must be broken up into governable chunks or the net becomes government.
    
    It seems to me that the leverage here favors cyberspace whenever
    and wherever we give cyberspace a monopoly position, which we are
    doing that blindly and often.  In the last couple of years, I've
    found that institutions that I more or less must use [...] no longer
    accept paper letter instructions, they each only accept digital
    delivery of such instructions.  This means that each of them has
    created a critical dependence on an Internet swarming with men in
    the middle and, which is more, they have doubtlessly given up their
    own ability to fall back to what worked for a century before.

    It is that giving up of alternative means that really defines what
    convergence is and does.  It is said that all civil wars are about
    on whose terms re-unification will occur.  I would argue that we
    are in, to coin a phrase, a Cold Civil War to determine on whose
    terms convergence occurs. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nT-TGvYOBpI#t=2824

http://geer.tinho.net/geer.blackhat.6viii14.txt (section "10. Convergence")

Re: German government to use Trojan spyware to monitor citizens

#60

considered how Germans are obsessed with privacy and state surveillance (see for example cash usage vs electronic payments), let's see a country going nut in 3 2 1 ...

You have a bit too positive image of us ;)

Yes, it will spark discussions again, and certainly be tested in front of our highest courts, and probably fail in some aspects and send back to the drawing boards again after a few years, but I don't expect that much "outrage", at least as long as it remains a tool for few specialized cases.

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