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Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

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Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#51

Post by pfg »

saurik wrote: post #25
zer01 wrote: post #7

>"It is no different than [the question of] should anybody ever have been able to tell the phone company to get information, should anybody be able to get at bank records,” he said. “Let’s say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said ‘don’t make me cut this ribbon because you’ll make me cut it many times’." Seriously? It's absolutely different (not to mention his ribbon analogy makes no sense at all).…

The reality is that Apple already has unfettered access to this device: they left themselves a backdoor to which only they have the key, in the form of a "secure" update mechanism that is so "secure" that even the user can't control it, only Apple can. To me the actual question here is whether the FBI should be allowed to ask and then force Apple to use the backdoor Apple built into their product; Apple painting this…

I don't think this is a fair assessment. Apple is being asked to create a firmware version without brute force rate-limiting. With a sufficiently complex passphrase, the FBI is still SOL. They're not being asked to create a firmware version that would decrypt the disk - which would be impossible due to the iPhone's security architecture. The fact that only Apple is in a position to sign firmware that could do this is a positive thing in this context. The only alternatives are no firmware signing at all (so everyone could run this attack), no updates at all, or enforcing the rate-limiting in a HSM (which is what they're doing on the latest generation iPhones).

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#52

Post by acqq »

saurik wrote: post #41
acqq wrote: post #34

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> from the perspective of Apple, as nothing more than a ribbon, as Apple already has "unfettered access to [your] data" No! Since iOS8 Apple intentionally encrypts the user's data on the phone in a way that even they don't have access to them. They have access to the hardware, to be able to reconfigure it, but not the encrypted data on the phone. Because the data is encrypted, intentionally so. And they have access t…

This is an iPhone 5C, which does not have the "secure enclave" feature, and it isn't even clear helps as Apple has stated to reporters that it is possible to do what the FBI wants, so we know the software on that component must be mutable. If it was actually impossible to do the thing the FBI wanted them to do then we would not even be having this discussion today: Apple would just say "can't, sorry" and the FBI woul…

Secure Enclave is irrelevant here. Even without Secure Enclave the data on iPhone 5C is encrypted with the user's password and Apple doesn't have access to the data as it doesn't have user's password, contrary to your claim that "Apple has the access to the data." No, FBI has access, but only to the encrypted data.

And FBI can't decrypt it. They locked themselves out of the phone, actually. And the phone is not the private phone of the killer, he destroyed that one, and his computer too. And note that he didn't care about this phone.

FBI demands from Apple to change their product (iOS) to make the encryption cracking attempts by FBI easier.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#53

Post by zer01 »

camillomiller wrote: post #35
saurik wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that Apple already has unfettered access to this device: they left themselves a backdoor to which only they have the key, in the form of a "secure" update mechanism that is so "secure" that even the user can't control it, only Apple can. To me the actual question here is whether the FBI should be allowed to ask and then force Apple to use the backdoor Apple built into their product; Apple painting this…

This is completely upside down. Can all Apple haters for once put down their haters' hat and try and be reasonable for the good of everybody? You phrased all that just to get to the conclusion that Apple is an over-controlling company imposing rules on otherwise super tech savvy users. Well sorry to break the news for you, but people decide on their own which smartphone to buy. Globally, most of the time, it's an And…

Don't pigeon-hole yourself, most people just want a phone that can load facebook and is cheap. The number of people who care about security is definitely rising, but they're still in a fairly small minority.

Also I'd venture that Saurik is quite the opposite of an "Apple hater", as he created cydia (https://cydia.saurik.com/), and contributed arguably the most to the iphone jailbreak community to date.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#54

Post by rahoulb »

tallanvor wrote: post #37
SeanDav wrote: post #21

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Bill Gates is well aware that people will take this, not as his personal opinion, but as the opinion of Microsoft. He could have made it it clear that this was his personal opinion and not related to the Microsoft position, but he did not.

Most people outside the tech industry don't pay attention to what Bill Gates, Tim Cook, or anyone else in the tech industry says. Those in the industry are hopefully smart enough to recognize that Bill Gates saying something doesn't mean that Microsoft is necessarily in agreement with it.

But the likes of Bill Gates will get quoted on the news headlines - most people don't care but will hear "Bill Gates says..." and think "well, if the experts think that"

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#55

Post by rrego »

saurik wrote: post #25
zer01 wrote: post #7

>"It is no different than [the question of] should anybody ever have been able to tell the phone company to get information, should anybody be able to get at bank records,” he said. “Let’s say the bank had tied a ribbon round the disk drive and said ‘don’t make me cut this ribbon because you’ll make me cut it many times’." Seriously? It's absolutely different (not to mention his ribbon analogy makes no sense at all).…

The reality is that Apple already has unfettered access to this device: they left themselves a backdoor to which only they have the key, in the form of a "secure" update mechanism that is so "secure" that even the user can't control it, only Apple can. To me the actual question here is whether the FBI should be allowed to ask and then force Apple to use the backdoor Apple built into their product; Apple painting this…

More or less correct if fully trusting any signed code by a third party (Apple) is a backdoor. For what it's worth, signed code imparts security benefits to Apple and Android users who indeed can't be trusted to not screw up their own phones.

Thing is, this entire system is based off of trust. If people lose trust in Apple, then they lose trust product. While even Apple can't decrypt the data, existence of malicious signed code means you can't trust signed code.

FBI would have done better to ask Apple in secret. Apple really made the only possible choice when faced with a public request.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#56

Post by mirimir »

pfg wrote: post #28
dingo_bat wrote: post #12

Can anybody explain why unlocking just this specific phone is bad? Can't we decide on a case-by-case basis? It's not like Apple is being asked to backdoor all Iphones so FBI can read everyone's data. Just this specific one ordered by court. What am I missing?

First of all, it sets a precedent that companies can be forced to create software that willfully compromises their security mechanisms. This is very much different from your typical data dump ordered by a judge. It's quite likely that the FBI and other law enforcement agencies would use such a precedent in many future cases. Second, it's unclear how easy it would be to create firmware that only works on a specific de…

Yes, the precedent is the key thing here.

Let's say that Apple crafted an update that does what the FBI wants. That in itself wouldn't put other iPhones at risk, as long as a signed copy of that malicious update didn't leave Apple's custody. The FBI hasn't even asked for that. They say that Apple could do all the work in house. Furthermore, it's unlikely that this malicious update would work on newer iPhones.

But the precedent would be established.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#59

Post by saurik »

pfg wrote: post #51
saurik wrote: post #25

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The reality is that Apple already has unfettered access to this device: they left themselves a backdoor to which only they have the key, in the form of a "secure" update mechanism that is so "secure" that even the user can't control it, only Apple can. To me the actual question here is whether the FBI should be allowed to ask and then force Apple to use the backdoor Apple built into their product; Apple painting this…

I don't think this is a fair assessment. Apple is being asked to create a firmware version without brute force rate-limiting. With a sufficiently complex passphrase, the FBI is still SOL. They're not being asked to create a firmware version that would decrypt the disk - which would be impossible due to the iPhone's security architecture. The fact that only Apple is in a position to sign firmware that could do this is…

> Apple is being asked to create a firmware version without brute force rate-limiting.

This is a one line of code change for Apple and would take them a few minutes. FWIW, there are people in the iOS jailbreaking community who could do this without the source code rather quickly. I'll even go so far as to say that we actually already have all the tools for this lying around for the iPhone 4, and with only minimal changes made by even less qualified engineers they would probably work on the iPhone 5C.

> With a sufficiently complex passphrase, the FBI is still SOL.

Most people use the 4- or 6- digit PIN number. One presumes that in this case the user did so (and you can tell, as the UI is different depending on the kind of passphrase used), or the FBI wouldn't be quite so excited to bother here. It takes mere minutes to crack a 4- digit PIN code on the iPhone 4.

> The fact that only Apple is in a position to sign firmware that could do this is a positive thing in this context. The only alternatives are no firmware signing at all (so everyone could run this attack), no updates at all, or enforcing the rate-limiting in a HSM (which is what they're doing on the latest generation iPhones).

You have conveniently removed "allow the user to lock everyone out from firmware updates except themselves" from the list of possible options :/. While I am perfectly happy with the idea that some people might want to allow Apple to update the firmware on their device, I would much rather no one be able to do that unless they go through me, and as I own the hardware and it is my data that is on the line, I should have the right to make that decision. Apple is selling locks, claiming them to be secure, while not only sitting on a master key but now claiming that it isn't really a master key, which is not just disingenuous but outright dishonest at this point.

Re: Bill Gates Says Apple Should Unlock the iPhone

#60

Post by chroma »

camillomiller wrote: post #47
chroma wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I thought it was quite clear that Gates was making an analogy for non-technical readers. He doesn't really think of encrypted devices that way. Unfortunately, there's no way Gates can win here. If he uses technical language, journalists and/or readers won't understand. Or worse: they'll misunderstand his views. If he uses simplistic analogies, he invites mockery from technical readers.

Yes, but in the second case he'll win the sympathy of the laymen who will think "hey, if even bill gates says they're wrong, maybe they're wrong. The guy's a genius". These people are less vocal than tech readers, but they vastly outnumber them.

I doubt Gates has any hidden motive behind his statements. He's just saying something he believes to be true, while trying to make sure others understand him. Why would he care about getting sympathy from laymen? He's the richest person on the planet. He's got more important stuff to do, like sparing millions of people from disease, poverty, and hunger.
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