Live data from Hacker News

The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

medium.com

51–60 of 83 posts

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#51

I think minecraft fits the bill pretty well actually. Kids make all kinds of things in there, and it's not fragile in the way traditional programming is. The article sort of gets hung up on form factor. Tablets are yet another window into the universe of computing, and there's a lot of creation happening. I suspect that the real promised land will need VR for Lego-like construction of components and/or AI-assisted co…

I thought of Minecraft too, and the other games that can be modded.

The ComputerCraft mod is interesting, especially a version where you can use a simple GUI inside Minecraft itself to create Lua scripts that control robots "turtles" and computers in the game world: http://computercraftedu.com/

A seven-year-old can make programs (maybe from smaller functions that they've already written) that will hopefully find the diamonds, build the houses, and manage the farms of their Minecraft life.

This seems possible because of the limited number of objects and actions in a Minecraft world, while Minecraft is still rich enough for plenty of experimentation, trial and error, and aha moments...

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#52
post #29

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here. Most people are not creative. Its true. There isn't some horde of people who want to program but don't know it yet because they own a tablet instead of a computer. There isn't some horde of musicians that will never know it because their music comes from an mp3 instead of their own instrument. There isn't some horde of artists who will never know it because their i…

I'm going to take a more middle-of-the-road view - Some people are not creative.

I think the main problem with the computer revolution (if defined by everyone programming) is that many people don't like to program. Even those who could learn are really trying to accomplish something else as their primary task. Commercial and bespoke software is a faster way to get to work on their primary task.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

XCode is not free. It costs 1 Mac. Given the price difference between the cheapest mac and the cheapest alternatives the cost of XCode something > $0 Posted from a mac

If we follow your argument to the logical extreme there is no such thing as free software because the computer to run such software almost always costs money? (Unless you receive a computer as a gift or it is freely leased; but then that applies to Macs as much as any computer.)

The argument is that Xcode isn't free because its use requires a previous purchase of a computer from the same vendor.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#54
post #29

I'm going to say something a bit controversial here. Most people are not creative. Its true. There isn't some horde of people who want to program but don't know it yet because they own a tablet instead of a computer. There isn't some horde of musicians that will never know it because their music comes from an mp3 instead of their own instrument. There isn't some horde of artists who will never know it because their i…

I disagree. Children are a good argument against this (actually, teenagers are even better - children go to play piano, but it's teenagers who make quite a big part of the content on the Internet), but you can stretch it even further - generally people have dreams and hobbies, they just don't have the time/capacity for advancing them. It's easy to paint "general population" as a bunch of mindless zombies, but think of any person you spent more than few hours interacting with in the physical world. Even the most stereotypical GenPop member. You'll discover that they have their idiosyncrasies and do lots of little creative things (and dream of doing more).

(Also note that some popular activities are creative even though we don't usually think of them this way; cooking is no less creative than web development or graphics design, and lots of people do creative side projects when e.g. baking gifts for friends, or throwing a party.)

I see having to work for a living as a biggest obstacle to creativity. For most people, their job takes most of their time and energy. After that, commute, making dinner and doing maintenance tasks, there's so little time and energy left that it's no surprise people are not very creative, and opt to watch TV or go to a bar instead. We're being forced out of creativity and into consumerism. I believe that things like Universal Basic Income are worth it because they could reverse this situation.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#55
post #43
post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Childhood is my go-to argument in favor of 'everyone is creative'. I've not talked to a single person who wasn't highly creative as a child, and just realizing that makes me sad sometimes.

I've never been convinced by that argument. Looking back on my memories as a child, I wouldn't call myself creative -- I think that's something that I've developed as I've grown older, not something I was born with. Certainly, to a degree, children are curious, but that seems largely out of necessity (to learn e.g. language so you can express anything , not necessarily something creative ).

Look back at your teenage memories too. Personally, I was more consciously creative then.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#57
post #9
post #2

more than a minority of specialists? All of the software, apps, and services out there should tell you that it's more than this. I've seen multiple articles talking about people as young as 10 years old creating apps. This wasn't possible in the 80s and 90s. I'm still not sure why adblock was thrown in there. It has only made it more difficult for indy sites and thw average person to make money and is helping to crea…

I've seen multiple articles talking about people as young as 10 years old creating apps. This wasn't possible in the 80s and 90s. Yeah it was. Some of us started programming at 5 or 6 years old in the 1980s and 1990s. That doesn't mean we're better at it than people who start at later ages, but it does show that it was possible for kids to code (and I'm sure some even made money at it) back then.

And so it was in the late 90s / early 2000s. I first touched code when I was 6-7, but otherwise started seriously programming when I was 12-13. The only thing you needed was a computer, a library in town, and parents who didn't limit your computer time very much.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can code on iOS devices. You can code in many different programming languages on IDEs available directly on the device. The code can be executed, and so programming is not inhibited. What you are referring to is deployment. You want to be able to deploy or distribute your programs freely through the official channels. And because that is locked down, you consider it "programmable by permission." I would argue tha…

The tablet point is a red herring. 8-bit micros were hardly portable. So discussions about whether or not you can code on iOS or OS X are tangential. The real issue is how easily you can code. 8-bit micros hit the sweet spot. No system available today comes close. You powered up the machine, and the first thing you saw was a BASIC line editor. There was nothing else to distract you. It was instant-on with no setup. Y…

Yeah, complexity and that we hide the carrots. Bear with me.

I still remember a point in my early teens when I decided I wanted to learn to program. I ran into a wall so hard I stopped for a good year or two.

The complexity is a considerable cliff unless you have a guiding hand (thanks dad for throwing me a copy of K&R and going off to watch startrek!), and if you didn't, you're not getting to Python around today.

First there's the "What language do I learn" search query that turns up so much confusing information. "Depends on what you want to do with it". Oh gee thanks, but I don't know what I want to do with it. I just see that other people are doing cool things with it, so I want to know how they do it.

So you dabble in Python, C, Java, whatever has install instructions you can follow, because the moment a terminal prompt pops out you're scared that you'll screw up the family magic box and get into a lot of trouble. At this point curltarmake sounds like a Polynesian dish to you. Ack.

But you never actually do something useful. Thank you helpful online tutorial, I now know how to print "Hello World" 100 times without copy and pasting it (though that'd have been faster). There's carrots for sure, but you never see them at that point. So you're like "eh, this tutorial is silly, let me try another of these 10 languages suggested".

And then later on, in high school you may have the considerable fortune to get to take a programming class that walks you through Java out of all of the things. All these OO concepts make little sense to you, but eh, you'll be tested on this. The code is still onerous and useless, but you signed up for the class. Towards the end, you'll slowly get an idea of useful things you can do with it (finally! after all these years!). Most of all, you'll develop a distaste of Java.

The wonders of childhood. I honestly believe Assembly is much more straightforward than trying to grasp the current programming ecosystem as an outsider or a kid. There's so much stuff to become acclimatized to.

So recently I've been working with a guy who wants go get into programming, did a bit of HTML&CSS&JS&Whatnot half a year ago, but he was stuck in that "I don't know where I'm going" stage. First thing I recommended him was "Automate the Boring Stuff with Python", which is a book I absolutely adore, because it first walks you through the basics (including setup), and then immediately gives you one library after another to string scripts together with.

Yes, the code may not be teaching the best conventions or habits, it never delves into OO or version control systems, but then it's interesting hubris to think beginners care about that before they got any utility out of the skill.

And he enjoyed it, learned a bunch of things, started writing his on scripts and is now getting into Django and reading through the python cookbook.

So yes, I think we're missing the mark on showing kids and newcomers how to program, in part because it's gotten more and more complex, and in part because we give them keys to doors they don't even know about, whilst withholding those to doors they care about. We've got a major sequencing problem here.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#59
post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If we follow your argument to the logical extreme there is no such thing as free software because the computer to run such software almost always costs money? (Unless you receive a computer as a gift or it is freely leased; but then that applies to Macs as much as any computer.)

The argument is that Xcode isn't free because its use requires a previous purchase of a computer from the same vendor .

Why does it matter that the money goes to the same vendor?

The argument is about whether the software is "free" or not. This only involves the cost to the end user. It is not concerned with where that money is paid.

Re: The Computer Revolution Has yet to Happen

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not his argument. His argument is that an apple computer is required for Xcode. An apple computer is a regular computer except that it costs more and comes with a bundle of software. Xcode is in the bundle. So... The price is indeterminable but definitely not $0. He hedged specifically against your reductio ad absurdem by mentioning the price difference.

The argument was made against the statement "Apple gives Xcode away for free." They do give Xcode away for free. I didn't think that factoring a modern development computer into the price was a reasonable stance to take against that line.

Mac isn't a modern development computer. It's a very specific modern development computer, and not necessarily the best in terms of quality/cost.

We're getting unnecessarily deep into dissecting this single line anyway. The original poster's point was that Apple's hardware and software ecosystem, while of great quality, still isn't the "bicycle for the mind" because it's terribly locked down.

Post reply on HN