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Running 50km after 82h of fasting

blog.xavivives.com

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Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#51

Post by zimpenfish »

brianwawok wrote: post #39
pneumatics wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a gnarly run. Almost 7000 ft of climbing (he gives the value in m, but all my reference points are in feet). It appears he was not auto-pausing, but did stop quite a bit. The time spent moving was 5:49. His pace, excluding the time stopped, was 11:12 min/mi. With the elevation gain, this is most definitely running.

To a decent runner that is nearly walking though. A record road race marathon pace is ~4:45 min miles. A slightly above average runner can do say 8 min miles over 26.2 miles on flats, which is only a titch under the 50k of this race. Trail races are slower, and 7000 feet is a decent amount of climbing.. but he was in no danger of setting any land speed record. 15 min miles is not that much faster than walking. So thi…

> A slightly above average runner can do say 8 min miles over 26.2 miles on flats

I make that a 3:30 marathon which I would suggest is rather more than "slightly above average" - you'd be in the first 25% male finishers at London 2015, for example.

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#52

Post by tacos »

jimrandomh wrote: post #46
tacos wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Do what you want privately but the value proposition changes when you publish your self-experimentation world-wide. More so when you promote it. And yet more still if and when you try to profit from it. There are clear and common ethical standards here and the blog post comes in well under them.

This is a blog post on the author's personal blog. It doesn't even have ads on it. I really don't see a legitimate objection here. Just take the data for what it is - a report of something one specific person was able to do, which other peoples' physiology might or might not be able to handle, plus some speculation about our distant evolutionary history.

> This is a blog post on the author's personal blog

No, the context is now reframed as a post on a highly-influential site, this one. The author is now commenting here, which is great.

But "Don't try something like this without at least talking to a doctor, I probably should have" has yet to appear on the post. Therefore I reserve the right to state my objection.

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#53

Post by tertius »

arnold_palmur wrote: post #31
PhrosTT wrote: post #5

I've seen people die running a half marathon. Please don't push your body to the breaking point just for giggles. Work your way up.

I was watching my fiance run and someone died literally right in front of me at the Brooklyn half-marathon in the fall (he was a young guy - I'd say late 20s). He collapsed right at the finish line and they couldn't revive him. The crazy thing is there was no mention of it after the race or anywhere, I tried googling to find out more info. but nothing. The only info. I found was on /r/running people where people who…

Very often overhydration causes electrolyte dilution that stops the heart.

Solution: Install a salt lick every 5 miles or so.

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#54

Post by dpark »

exelius wrote: post #8

While this may be possible, I would worry about the effects on your liver. Ketosis does put additional strain on the liver, and while it doesn't seem like the side effects of extended ketosis are dangerous, there simply aren't any studies on ultra-endurance exercise during ketosis. And while studies on extended exercise during ketosis would be a good thing, they should be performed by researchers and doctors who know…

> our ancestors did not have a long life expectancy

Historical life expectancy was skewed because of high childhood mortality. If you look at modern hunter-gatherers, life expectancy is still in the 30s, but life expectancy at age 15 is 54. This is still short by modern standards but everyone isn't/wasn't dying in their 30s.

edit: Forgot link to paper: http://www.unm.edu/~hkaplan/KaplanHillLancasterHurtado_2000_...

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#55

Post by zimpenfish »

brianwawok wrote: post #44
IgorPartola wrote: post #40

I just started training for my first marathon, and am trying to do some reading on the subject. Hal Higdon's position is I guess what you might call "traditional": your muscles use glycogen as the preferred energy source. Around mile 20 is when most people deplete their glycogen and start burning fat as the primary source of energy, but this is much less efficient, resulting in a performance drop. If this is indeed t…

I think you are conflating two things. Losing weight you do outside of races. Eat less, exercise more - you lose weight. Now during an actual race - do you want to burn sugar or fat? Your body has a TON more fat, even a skinny guy has 50k calories of fat he can burn.. whereas the same guy only has 2k calories of sugar to burn. However burning fat is less efficient, so you are unlikely to set a speed record doing it.…

You can, perhaps, train yourself to burn fat more efficiently which helps.

e.g. http://home.trainingpeaks.com/blog/article/using-low-carbohy...

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#56

Post by rglullis »

PhrosTT wrote: post #5

I've seen people die running a half marathon. Please don't push your body to the breaking point just for giggles. Work your way up.

> I've seen people die running a half marathon.

From the "Those who don't learn History are doomed to repeat it" department: the whole reason people "run a Marathon" is because of the legend of a Soldier, Pheidippides, running from Marathon to Athens and dying after announcing victory in battle.

If people are aware of this basic information and still are stupid enough to run without any preparation, I'd say they would be candidates for the Darwin Awards.

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#57

Post by maxerickson »

tacos wrote: post #52
jimrandomh wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a blog post on the author's personal blog. It doesn't even have ads on it. I really don't see a legitimate objection here. Just take the data for what it is - a report of something one specific person was able to do, which other peoples' physiology might or might not be able to handle, plus some speculation about our distant evolutionary history.

> This is a blog post on the author's personal blog No, the context is now reframed as a post on a highly-influential site, this one. The author is now commenting here, which is great. But "Don't try something like this without at least talking to a doctor, I probably should have" has yet to appear on the post. Therefore I reserve the right to state my objection.

Should the talking to a doctor disclaimer come with a disclaimer that you should first make sure your doctor is competent?

And a disclaimer to make sure that the person reading the comment is competent to assess whether their doctor is competent?

And a disclaimer that there may be errors in the disclaimers, so think for yourself a little bit?

Personally, I'll take an article like this one where the author doesn't much represent any of it as advice over an article that claims to give a bunch of advice but qualifies it with a disclaimer that it might not apply, check with an expert.

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#58

Post by runamok »

brianwawok wrote: post #39
pneumatics wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is a gnarly run. Almost 7000 ft of climbing (he gives the value in m, but all my reference points are in feet). It appears he was not auto-pausing, but did stop quite a bit. The time spent moving was 5:49. His pace, excluding the time stopped, was 11:12 min/mi. With the elevation gain, this is most definitely running.

To a decent runner that is nearly walking though. A record road race marathon pace is ~4:45 min miles. A slightly above average runner can do say 8 min miles over 26.2 miles on flats, which is only a titch under the 50k of this race. Trail races are slower, and 7000 feet is a decent amount of climbing.. but he was in no danger of setting any land speed record. 15 min miles is not that much faster than walking. So thi…

Just as a point of reference I ran this 30k [1] (18.6 miles) at 8:38 pace vs. a flat road half marathon (13.1 miles) at 6:41 pace about 5 months later.

As you can see in this [2] it climbs from a low of 2500 feet to 3700 feet. I'd estimate 1500 feet total so much less than in the article.

I usually place in the top 5% of men in most races.

[1] http://www.othtc.com/ultra/course/Course.htm [2] http://www.othtc.com/ultra/course/ultra%20maps/30kprofile.jp...

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#59

Post by xavivives »

I did not see a doctor. Not before, not after. The truth is that even if I had seen one I wouldn't take in account her opinion anyway.

The current standards for nutrition are based on a diet rich in carbohydrates. Any response from a doctor (at least the ones I have access to) will discourage this event. It just doesn't fit on their models. Plus they have to play safe. I appreciate all the people who are concern about my health. I'm doing fantastically well. Thanks.

I do believe that ketosis is the "default" state for the human being. I have plenty of reasons for that and I'll try to explore more arguments in other posts. Its a very broad subject and I wanted to narrow the scope.

I didn't do this experiment out of nowhere. I've been running in ketosis for long time and I know myself pretty well. I've been reading and educating on the subject. I'm not completely stupid. I know the risks and I know there is a lot we don't know about. But if I've done it its because previous runs and experiments gave me the enough confidence.

This post doesn't suppose to be a scientific study, not to give any medical advice (I'm taking note from your comments and I'll add a warning). Its just my experience based on what I thing should be a more commmon approach, to focus more on the fundamentals than on a micro view.

Re: Running 50km after 82h of fasting

#60

Post by xavivives »

ErikAugust wrote: post #47

He did it in 7:45. They don't stop the race timer because you stopped. That's towards the back of the pack for a trail 50K with that kind of elevation profile. It'd be better as an experiment if we measured the author's VO2Max, his 1 mile run time on a track, and then ran the 50K on a track. Measure ketone levels, etc.

My resources are limited. But given the chance I won't mind repeating it.
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