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All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

theatlantic.com

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Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#51

Post by Spooky23 »

tosseraccount wrote: post #47
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that employers aren't allowed to measure and discriminate on IQ, but they are allowed to look at which college a candidate went to. Colleges, on the other hand, are allowed to measure and discriminate based on SAT score, which is highly correlated with IQ. And since college education is mostly a positional good (it helps you compete against people with worse education for limited jobs), there's a pretty fantasti…

What? Employers can't test for intelligence? Do you have a link that backs up your assertion that "employers aren't allowed to measure and discriminate on IQ".

These tests are considered to be racially and culturally biased, so they are not suitable for employment decision making.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#52

Post by digbyloftus »

tosseraccount wrote: post #47
ThrustVectoring wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Note that employers aren't allowed to measure and discriminate on IQ, but they are allowed to look at which college a candidate went to. Colleges, on the other hand, are allowed to measure and discriminate based on SAT score, which is highly correlated with IQ. And since college education is mostly a positional good (it helps you compete against people with worse education for limited jobs), there's a pretty fantasti…

What? Employers can't test for intelligence? Do you have a link that backs up your assertion that "employers aren't allowed to measure and discriminate on IQ".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Griggs_v._Duke_Power_Co.

>The effect of this decision has been to eliminate aptitude tests from the hiring process. During the intervening years, the college diploma has become the "de facto" tool by HR departments to winnow the flood of applications. Many jobs today require a college diploma, while before Griggs the same job did not.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#53

Post by JackFr »

Spooky23 wrote: post #20
meric wrote: post #10

What is society's ideal for the average white working class? What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? Is it getting to live in a very expensive nursing home when they retire? Is it equality where both husband and wife are responsible exactly 50% in finances, chores and taking care of the kids? Or have the time & money to spend a lot more time with the kids; Will welfare help…

Most people yearn for purpose, family, and community. I think of my grandparents and how they lived their lives. My mom's dad was a NYC Sanitation worker, among other things. They lived frugally and eventually had a small summer cottage in the country. He had an 8th grade education, because his family in Ireland couldn't afford more. Yet he taught himself calculus up to the calc 2 level. That whole cohort of grandpar…

This is spot on.

Sometimes I think the broader culture seems to be stripping the meaning out of life, convincing us that we are no more than hedonic production/consumption machines.

The breakdown of the family (and not simply the household, but the larger extended family), the loss of non-state civic institutions and death of churches are either a cause or an effect, but its not clear which.

And to me, there are not obvious solutions.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#54

Post by api »

meric wrote: post #10

What is society's ideal for the average white working class? What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? Is it getting to live in a very expensive nursing home when they retire? Is it equality where both husband and wife are responsible exactly 50% in finances, chores and taking care of the kids? Or have the time & money to spend a lot more time with the kids; Will welfare help…

I'd say financial security sufficient to not live on debt, decent accommodations, health care, and dignity in old age.

Applies just as much to everyone as it does to whites or the working class, and statistically the black working class has it worse.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#55

Post by digbyloftus »

throwaway2048 wrote: post #35
robgibbons wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If success is being better than average, then not everyone could enjoy it, or else success would just be the average.

>99% everyone on earth has more than the statistical mean amount of legs.

Statistical mean would seem like a poor choice in determining average in that case then.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#56

Post by JackFr »

orangecat wrote: post #45
watmough wrote: post #16

There is simply not enough 'work' any more. Here's a thought. Why can't we as a society ensure that everyone is paid a living wage according to their need. It may take a while, but I believe this will be the only way that we can hold this society* together. * Deep irony here, speaking as one of 'Thatcher's children'.

Deep irony here, speaking as one of 'Thatcher's children'. Not really; there's a fair amount of support for a basic income from conservatives and libertarians, for good reason. We've decided that we aren't going to let people starve in the streets if they can't find a job. Given that, it makes much more sense to just give people money than to have a huge bureaucracy with dozens of programs trying to alleviate individ…

The social services bogeyman of present day conservatives is no longer the mythical 'welfare queen' but the extensive poverty industry taking their cut as the money sluices through the pipes.

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#57

Post by meric »

CPLX wrote: post #44
meric wrote: post #10

What is society's ideal for the average white working class? What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? Is it getting to live in a very expensive nursing home when they retire? Is it equality where both husband and wife are responsible exactly 50% in finances, chores and taking care of the kids? Or have the time & money to spend a lot more time with the kids; Will welfare help…

That was a whole lot fluffy vagueness. What they want are stable jobs that don't require higher education. Quite a bit follows from that.

That's backwards. Are the stable jobs don't require higher education what they want in and of itself, or purpose, love, acceptance and belonging you perceive they will be able to get with such a job? If they want what you think a job would give them, why not aim to make available what they actually want? Yes, these days it may be true without a job you lose purpose, love, acceptance and you lose belonging, due to the modern institution of divorce after 10 years or so, but what about society where a job is not required to receive purpose, love, acceptance and belonging?

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#58

Post by JackFr »

vacri wrote: post #40
rdlecler1 wrote: post #36

The problem is, is that 'good jobs' are hard to find even if you have a good education. If you do, you can look forward to 60-80 work weeks, expensive housing and child care, and of course massive student loan debt. Very few of the things that were available to the middle class 25 years ago are available to the best and brightest today. The question is, is there anything that can be done about it, it was the period b…

> Very few of the things that were available to the middle class 25 years ago are available to the best and brightest today. This is such millenialist bullshit. Overall people are better off now than ever before. Yes, there are problems now, but there have always been problems. 25 years ago, the internet was unknown to the general public. Housing is more expensive, but food and clothing are cheaper, something these s…

> Remember when being visibly pregnant in public was a source of shame?

Am I missing some context? When was that?

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#59

Post by [deleted] »

meric wrote: post #10

What is society's ideal for the average white working class? What is "success"? Is it better looking houses? More expensive cars? Fresher food? Is it getting to live in a very expensive nursing home when they retire? Is it equality where both husband and wife are responsible exactly 50% in finances, chores and taking care of the kids? Or have the time & money to spend a lot more time with the kids; Will welfare help…

[deleted]

Re: All Hollowed Out: The lonely poverty of America’s white working class

#60

Post by Slothrop99 »

bitL wrote: post #11

As a non-american I would like to ask: did the affirmative action go too far up to the point of endangering another group? If so, what correction steps would you take?

No, enormous levels of immigration over the last twenty years. If this is affecting IT worker and medical professional wages, you know it's a sucker punch to the working class, white black native american and everyone else.

I made $12/hour as a "forklift operator" in 1993, just as a point of reference. And I doubt a modern college student could even get hired for a forklift operator-type job.

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