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Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

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Re: Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

#51
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'll copy a reply I wrote to a similar question elsewhere. This is a reply that was written in response to a comment on this post: https://fixingtao.com/2016/01/lunatics-terrorists-and-the-th... And is copied from here: https://www.reddit.com/r/Buddhism/comments/40uevh/lunatics_t... > The system is forced onto Canadian Citizens, there is no way to opt out. This is not entirely accurate, you can certainly opt-out by l…

Quoting from within your self-quoted reply: Does that address your question? Perfectly, thank you. It seems we're rather in agreement: play along, or don't — where "don't" isn't just a matter of not paying taxes, but still using the roads, or whatever. I'm, personally, not interested in going back and forth on the notion or merits of internal secession, or "home rule" or any of that; that's orthogonal to the point I…

Replying just to the last part of your edit:

> Witness the neo-Nazi group that tried to take over a town in North Dakota as an existence proof of the phenomenon. That's the kind of thing you'd explicitly have to allow, if you pursue the concept to fruition.

If you are referring to a military takeover-type situation, the concept does not endorse that as in that instance the group members are not being represented.

On the other hand, yes, if the group members choose a set of rules that you (an outsider) disagree with, they should still be allowed to do so. To quote from the post itself:

Through awareness of the mortality of all systems (including our own), we should ensure a means by which any group is able to abandon our system in a conflict-free manner if its members want to adopt something else—even if we might disagree with their choice. Systems that explicitly allow such secession are called voluntary systems.

Re: Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

#52

Feels like the best approach is to encourage farmers to boycot at least one of the major tractor providers until these restrictions are removed. No new laws or lawsuits needed -- just some collective action.

Which provider do you propose we boycott, and which one do we use in the mean time? JohnDeere, CASE, New Holland etc dominate the industry, and no farmer is going to (let alone can afford to) stop using their current equipment, and spend millions of dollars (it would easily cost us this much) buying different brand machinery. Let alone dealing with the hassles that come with swapping from one stream of ag software to…

Case IH and New Holland are both under the CNH (Fiat) umbrella, so at least you don't have to choose between them.

Re: Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

#53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't recall ISPs being sued [and found liable] before the DMCA. That seems akin to the phone company being sued for someone singing happy birthday over their lines. IMHO being thankful for "safe harbor" seems more like a post-rationalization than anything else. If poor definitions meant common carriers weren't actually exempt, then that could have been resolved with straightforward clarification instead of an unne…

Playboy Enterprises, Inc. v. Frena (1993) and Sega Enterprises Ltd. v. MAPHIA (1994). Both were held liable for unauthorized copies uploaded by users.

(Well, a BBS is more akin to a website, but the shifted argument is still valid if one thinks "web 2.0" is a good thing. And MAPHIA seems irrelevant due to its significant findings of editorial control)

"Frena" wasn't necessarily a correct decision, especially given the extreme power imbalance between parties. Would the same decision be reached if the defendant had been a well capitalized business? Similarly, the modern inverse of an individual file sharer trying to hide behind the DMCA likely wouldn't fly.

The decision certainly goes against what one would expect from general legal principles, but I suppose that's inevitable in the face of cancer like intent-free criminality. The same reasoning would have indicted him for a cd-r tossed onto his lawn.

Re: Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

#54
post #14

Earlier quoted context omitted.

My life is markedly better for having those handful of people make those decisions. It is just that in a few cases, like repairing tractors, they get it wrong. That doesn't mean I want them gone, that just means I want them to stop being wrong, or at most I want different people to make those decisions and have that power over my life. Rejecting the entire concept of having leadership and structure because these part…

> Rejecting the entire concept of having leadership and structure because these particular leaders aren't perfect... That's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm saying pick a structure and leaders that really do represent you. That's a very different thing from voting for pre-selected candidates whom you've never met and don't interact with, and then crossing your fingers.

> That's a very different thing from voting for pre-selected candidates whom you've never met and don't interact with, and then crossing your fingers.

I'm a bit sick right now, thus either my math or my formulas might be off. I welcome any corrections. :)

So.

Copyright policy is decided at the Federal level. The people in charge of setting that policy are elected members of Congress.

Let's assume that you can declare someone "met and interacted with" with a single five-minute conversation.

According to Wikipedia, California is the most populous state and Wyoming is the least populous state.

The CA Secretary of State reports that ~17 million voters were registered to vote as of the date of the 2014 general election. The WY Secretary of State reports that ~240 thousand voters were registered to vote as of that same date.

There are 124,800 minutes in a standard 40-hour-per-week, no-vacations-or-holidays work year. (60x40x52)

For Wyoming, each Senatorial challenger would need to spend 48,000 minutes per election cycle speaking to each registered voter. (240,000/5) That's doable.

For California, a challenger would spend 3,400,000 minutes per election cycle on the same task. (17,000,000/5) For California, what you propose is not possible for Senatorial challengers... they'd have to do nothing but hold conferences for 27 years to get this task done. (3,400,000/124,800)

So, what's the largest state where this is feasible?

This might be South Dakota (the 46th most populous state) (with -I think- ~514,000 voters). [0] If it's not, it's definitely Alaska (the 48th) (with ~509,000 voters).

So, it is physically impossible to even pay lip service to what you propose in either fourty-six, or fourty-eight of the states in the US.

Before you get too cranky, I do acknowledge that the situation changes when one meets with one's Representative:

In California the 27-year workload would -roughly- be divided over 53 representatives, meaning that they'd only have to spend just over half of a year meeting every registered voter in the state. But... this assumes a five-minute meeting. If that constituent meeting balloons to ten minutes, we're right back in the realm of impossibility.

While the workload might be smaller in the smallest states, Representatives are apportioned by population, so I don't expect that the picture would vary very much from state to state.

In short, your idea is promising, and would be really great to do... but there just aren't enough hours in the day to make it happen. [1]

[0] I'm having a fuck of a time finding historical voter registration numbers for SD. So, that voter registration number is based off of what I'm pretty sure is current voter registration data. :/ (North Dakota doesn't even have voter registration!).

[1] Yes, my analysis ignores the fact that a campaign could conceivably be a multi-year thing. It's difficult to get good numbers on the length of an average Congressional campaign, but it's... difficult to believe that a campaign would run for longer than two years.

Re: Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

#55
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Is the argument that copyright law was a stupid idea, or that 18th century lawmakers were stupid not to consider the law's impact on the internet?

200 years ago when IP had volume costs associated with it, where there was no way for creator to interact with consumer, they were useful. Flawed, but served their purpose. Today, the purpose is lost, and the use is exploitative.

The original purpose was to incentivize creative works, and the desirability of that hasn't really gone away. For example, Free software would be a lot further along if there could be a lucrative business model behind it.

Enforcement is just utterly at odds with physics and at this point, the idea of "owning" control of bits in someone else's possession is incompatible with a free society.

Re: Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

#56
post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Quoting from within your self-quoted reply: Does that address your question? Perfectly, thank you. It seems we're rather in agreement: play along, or don't — where "don't" isn't just a matter of not paying taxes, but still using the roads, or whatever. I'm, personally, not interested in going back and forth on the notion or merits of internal secession, or "home rule" or any of that; that's orthogonal to the point I…

Replying just to the last part of your edit: > Witness the neo-Nazi group that tried to take over a town in North Dakota as an existence proof of the phenomenon. That's the kind of thing you'd explicitly have to allow, if you pursue the concept to fruition. If you are referring to a military takeover-type situation, the concept does not endorse that as in that instance the group members are not being represented. On…

No, it was a fully "democratic" takeover, in that they saw a small town, much of which was for sale, and tried to buy up enough of the town that they'd have a majority, and be able to vote in whatever hateful nonsense they deemed fit. What do you suppose the town's original, non-neo-Nazi inhabitants should have done if they'd succeeded? They aren't exactly being represented in this case, either.

I guess, as long as you're cognizant of the fact that the system you're espousing offers potential institutionalized hate as a means of conflict avoidance, I don't think there's much else to say.

EDIT: Or, hell, let's just take it straight to ludicrous-land. Imagine a group that believes it should be able to practice virgin sacrifice, and raises their sacrificial virgins from birth to believe that it's in their, and their society's interest to be placed upon the altar, so they aren't inclined to leave the society that believes it needs their mortal blood for its upkeep. Do the rest of us just sit by and say, "Well, they're over there in West Whack-a-doo. Nothin' to be done about it", and let them go about their business?

Re: Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

#57

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Rejecting the entire concept of having leadership and structure because these particular leaders aren't perfect... That's not what I'm suggesting at all. I'm saying pick a structure and leaders that really do represent you. That's a very different thing from voting for pre-selected candidates whom you've never met and don't interact with, and then crossing your fingers.

> That's a very different thing from voting for pre-selected candidates whom you've never met and don't interact with, and then crossing your fingers. I'm a bit sick right now, thus either my math or my formulas might be off. I welcome any corrections. :) So. Copyright policy is decided at the Federal level. The people in charge of setting that policy are elected members of Congress. Let's assume that you can declare…

> So, it is physically impossible to even pay lip service to what you propose in either fourty-six, or fourty-eight of the states in the US.

lol, that is the opposite of my proposal, and your post (thank you for it btw) just further solidifies my point.

When math says it's impossible for your representative to represent you, perhaps at that point we realize that the system has reached the end of its shelf life.

See the rest of my comments in this thread for a clearer understanding of what I'm saying (and my apologies for the comments that HN makes difficult to read due to downvotes ;).

Re: Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

#58

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a very different thing from voting for pre-selected candidates whom you've never met and don't interact with, and then crossing your fingers. I'm a bit sick right now, thus either my math or my formulas might be off. I welcome any corrections. :) So. Copyright policy is decided at the Federal level. The people in charge of setting that policy are elected members of Congress. Let's assume that you can declare…

> So, it is physically impossible to even pay lip service to what you propose in either fourty-six, or fourty-eight of the states in the US. lol, that is the opposite of my proposal, and your post (thank you for it btw) just further solidifies my point. When math says it's impossible for your representative to represent you, perhaps at that point we realize that the system has reached the end of its shelf life. See t…

Er, one of the specific values of the current system is that the people who (theoretically) represent me and make rules I must abide by also do so for millions of other people. This is genuinely advantageous, even for, perhaps especially for, copyright law. Things are in-copyright or out-of-copyright in a consistent way nationwide, fair use exceptions are defined the same way nationwide, public domain and author's rights exist or don't exist nationwide, etc.

If I have myself and a small number of people represented and ruled by a group of folks, the only way to get this result is for my group of people to form federations with other groups of people, and those federations to form meta-federations, and so forth, and have each group willingly delegate most of its authority upwards. But that's really similar to how I live now.

Re: Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

#59
post #56

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Replying just to the last part of your edit: > Witness the neo-Nazi group that tried to take over a town in North Dakota as an existence proof of the phenomenon. That's the kind of thing you'd explicitly have to allow, if you pursue the concept to fruition. If you are referring to a military takeover-type situation, the concept does not endorse that as in that instance the group members are not being represented. On…

No, it was a fully "democratic" takeover, in that they saw a small town, much of which was for sale, and tried to buy up enough of the town that they'd have a majority, and be able to vote in whatever hateful nonsense they deemed fit. What do you suppose the town's original, non-neo-Nazi inhabitants should have done if they'd succeeded? They aren't exactly being represented in this case, either. I guess, as long as y…

That's a fair point, but from what you've shared it sounds more like an invasion of sorts than an actual secession movement. Do you know how much of a majority they had? If it was on the order of 51% of a tiny town that just doesn't seem sufficient.

As you say, it helps for the place to be self-sufficient.

A good example actually are the Amish. Their towns are almost completely composed of Amish and they're entirely self-sufficient except for the standing army part.

For this they actually pay fewer taxes than most Americans, but they still do pay taxes.

The formation of a country seems to require at least two things then:

1. Self-sufficiency in terms of resources

2. Self-sufficiency in terms of defense

(EDIT2: A friend points out that it's a bit more nuanced than this since many existing countries do not satisfy these criteria given the nature of modern trade. So these requirements can be filled by-proxy.)

On that last point, it doesn't necessarily have to imply a superior military. As long as you have some sort of leverage over neighboring countries (like trade agreements), you can arrange to have a truce or even an alliance between yourselves.

An example would be if Silicon Valley and neighboring farming regions banded together and said, "No more tech unless you give us autonomy."

---

EDIT: regarding the question you inserted in your edit, please see if the post I mentioned answers your question: https://fixingtao.com/2016/01/lunatics-terrorists-and-the-th... If it doesn't I invite you to post a comment there to continue the convo.

Re: Before I Can Fix This Tractor, We Have to Fix Copyright Law

#60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> That's a very different thing from voting for pre-selected candidates whom you've never met and don't interact with, and then crossing your fingers. I'm a bit sick right now, thus either my math or my formulas might be off. I welcome any corrections. :) So. Copyright policy is decided at the Federal level. The people in charge of setting that policy are elected members of Congress. Let's assume that you can declare…

> So, it is physically impossible to even pay lip service to what you propose in either fourty-six, or fourty-eight of the states in the US. lol, that is the opposite of my proposal, and your post (thank you for it btw) just further solidifies my point. When math says it's impossible for your representative to represent you, perhaps at that point we realize that the system has reached the end of its shelf life. See t…

> When math says it's impossible for your representative to represent you...

That's not at all what I said, and it's a dramatic misinterpretation of my words. There are substantially better mechanisms available to us to figure out what people want and what they need than for a decision maker to ask them, one-on-one.

From what I understand, there's a whole raft of really good, reproducible research on how to tease out what people mean from what they say; people are surprisingly bad at both knowing what they want, and -even if they do happen to know- surprisingly bad at expressing that information coherently. It's trivial to structure queries in such a way to give different answers to what is effectively the same question. [0]

> ...perhaps at that point we realize that the system has reached the end of its shelf life.

This is narrow-minded. Based on this comment, you appear to be proposing that we dramatically increase the number of Federal representatives per citizen. [1] Go pick a country that you think is well run at the highest levels. Go look at their representative to constituent ratios. If they're like 10x or 100x greater than the US's ratios, [4] then you might have a point. If they're only 2x or 5x greater, you probably don't.

[0] A researcher wishes to discover what Presidential candidate a given person intends to vote for. He asks them "What Presidential candidate do you intend to vote for?". Most of the time, the answer to that question does not match what candidate that person actually votes for. The question to ask to get that information -most of the time- is actually "What Presidential candidate do you expect that most people will vote for?". Polling is full of crazy pitfalls like this!

[1] The other possible interpretation is either advocacy of voluntary expatriation of people who disagree with their Congressional representatives [2], or dismantlement of the Federal government. [3]

[2] Okay, sure. You do have the trouble of both finding a country that's governed in a way that you agree with, and will accept you as an immigrant, though.

[3] Ha. See the rest of the paragraph to which footnote #1 is attached.

[4] I'm fairly sure that's in the right direction. Again, I'm sick, sorry if my math is off.

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