The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume • Hacker News Board

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#51

Post by FLUX-YOU » Wed, Jan 06, 2016, 3:51 AM UTC

mrkurt wrote: post #50

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Can you share a sample test?

It totally depends on the position. For developers, we extract some production application code, remove some features, and give people relatively open ended "implement a feature to solve X problem" instructions. The criteria for those range from "idiomatic code" to "good enough to ship right now" to "good UX", depending on what specific type of dev we're after. For support, we pull actual tickets and ask for response…

Any chance of sharing an old test for a dev position?

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#52

Post by mrkurt » Wed, Jan 06, 2016, 3:51 AM UTC

snowwrestler wrote: post #45

grayfox wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad you brought up the other side of things. If you were an applicant of such impressive, world renowned stature the answer would be: yes, (sir), you still need to go through the regular hiring process. It isn't an arbitrary request, like building a JavaScript calculator. The samples we ask that you complete closely resemble the type of work you'd do in the role. When hiring engineers for example, we take a piec…

If you hire someone and they are a talented, hardworking, likable teammate, the other employees will not care what the interview process was. If you hire someone and they are a poor worker and a pain in the ass, you should get rid of them regardless of the interview process. I think you're letting the tail wag the dog here.

Well ... yes. We work really hard on the process precisely so we can find find people who are capable, easy to work with, and self directed.

Part of doing this is being consistent with people. The people who work here welcome a new hire _knowing_ that they've already proven what they can do, and having witnessed it in action. They don't have to rely on weak signals or someone else's gut feeling.

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#53

Post by sheepmullet » Wed, Jan 06, 2016, 3:57 AM UTC

grayfox wrote: post #27

bitL wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So you are telling us that if we had a PhD, multiple awards from previous companies for actual work and not politicking/backstabbing/brownnosing, Coursera/edX certificates relevant to your area of business with almost 100% success rate on their most difficult courses, can program in 50+ languages, you would still ignore our past success and we have to go through your normal hiring process? I am sure this would bring…

I'm glad you brought up the other side of things. If you were an applicant of such impressive, world renowned stature the answer would be: yes, (sir), you still need to go through the regular hiring process. It isn't an arbitrary request, like building a JavaScript calculator. The samples we ask that you complete closely resemble the type of work you'd do in the role. When hiring engineers for example, we take a piec…

> and reflects on the (entitled) attitude of the candidate.

It isn't about being entitled. It is about valuing the candidates time.

Almost every company I have worked at has been incredibly picky about work samples. Candidates who did a pretty good job were frequently passed over.

This shows that the company doesn't value the 4-8 hours the candidate has invested. It is the company who is acting entitled.

So now when I get asked to participate in a take home project, I simply move on to the next job. If I participate then I am giving up on 4-5 other jobs for a likely rejection.

Do you publish your acceptance rates? I.e. how many people who complete the requested work end up getting and accepting offers?

If you had a high acceptance rate (say over 70%) I would happily complete a work sample. Most places I've worked at are closer to 10% acceptance rates.

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#54

Post by mrkurt » Wed, Jan 06, 2016, 3:58 AM UTC

FLUX-YOU wrote: post #51

mrkurt wrote: post #50

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It totally depends on the position. For developers, we extract some production application code, remove some features, and give people relatively open ended "implement a feature to solve X problem" instructions. The criteria for those range from "idiomatic code" to "good enough to ship right now" to "good UX", depending on what specific type of dev we're after. For support, we pull actual tickets and ask for response…

Any chance of sharing an old test for a dev position?

This one's current, I don't know why but I'm vaguely weirded out about posting it here. It's already public on GH though so I guess I'll power through. :)

https://github.com/compose/app-ws

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#55

Post by bitL » Wed, Jan 06, 2016, 4:04 AM UTC

mrkurt wrote: post #42

avn2109 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think what the GP is asking is this: If Jeff Dean walks through your door tomorrow, are you going to try to make him jump through hoops? Obviously he's a better hacker than statistically ~everyone you've ever met, so it might be silly to not hire him immediately. Plus, it takes some chutzpah to intentionally waste 3 hours of his time.

I don't think it makes sense to base a hiring process on outliers. Still, if he were interested, he'd go through the same process as everyone else. There's a fairly good chance most of our positions require more than being a good hacker, be it some UI skills, or operations work, or even "ability to talk to an angry customer".

We all wish you good luck then! ;-)

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#56

Post by mrkurt » Wed, Jan 06, 2016, 4:13 AM UTC

sheepmullet wrote: post #53

grayfox wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm glad you brought up the other side of things. If you were an applicant of such impressive, world renowned stature the answer would be: yes, (sir), you still need to go through the regular hiring process. It isn't an arbitrary request, like building a JavaScript calculator. The samples we ask that you complete closely resemble the type of work you'd do in the role. When hiring engineers for example, we take a piec…

> and reflects on the (entitled) attitude of the candidate. It isn't about being entitled. It is about valuing the candidates time. Almost every company I have worked at has been incredibly picky about work samples. Candidates who did a pretty good job were frequently passed over. This shows that the company doesn't value the 4-8 hours the candidate has invested. It is the company who is acting entitled. So now when…

We're very, very careful about wasting peoples' time. Most people who complete the sample projects spend an hour or so talking to someone about how the company works, what to expect with hiring, etc. We try and reciprocate on time spent with everyone. Some people don't want that, they'd rather just go off and do the thing, but it's important to us. It _also_ helps us get more completed projects from candidates, so there's a definite benefit beyond warm fuzzies.

That said, we don't have a high acceptance rate. We've noticed that there's a break point for most of these, if you normalize the scores there's a clump of people with >80% and then most are way below that. Depending on the role, and the intensity of the work sample, I think we probably select about 25-30% of completed projects to continue.

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#57

Post by mrkurt » Wed, Jan 06, 2016, 4:18 AM UTC

e12e wrote: post #48

grayfox wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We were acquired by IBM last year. As we adjust to their HR systems, we have to limit our hiring range. Each region needs to have a "proxy" manager to take care of the employees within that region. As we had Canadians and folks from London with us at the time of the acquisition, we were set-up respectively. We hired an excellent engineer out of Germany before we were clear on the processes, and it's added a significa…

Thank you for your reply. But I'm a little confused (perhaps the EU/EEC labour marked is more complicated than I thought (or your German hire wasn't a German citizen?): Surely a German is entitled to work in the UK? Would you need/want EU hires to relocate physically to the UK - and if so, why? (Seeing as you're remote-first anyway)?

This is mostly an IBM process problem. Employees need to have "in country managers". We didn't have anyone in Germany, thus we had to scare someone up to have the new person report to on paper despite working with us. IBM itself can hire in basically any country, but for a lot of really irritating and well entrenched reasons, we're further limited by internal org structure and finance.

In theory, had the person relocated to the UK it would have been easier because we do have in country managers that know what we're up to there.

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#58

Post by mrkurt » Wed, Jan 06, 2016, 4:19 AM UTC

RangerScience wrote: post #38

toomuchtodo wrote: post #28

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you guys will do great for junior folks (where a resume with little experience would be a hinderance traditionally) or perhaps people who are willing to jump through hoops to work from home, but I don't see it catching on (unfortunately?). > If you were to circumvent this, or feel you "shouldn't have to do this", what message does that send to the rest of the team? Does everyone on your team get paid the same…

Are you paid to write hard code, or are you paid to solve a problem? If solving that problem involves things that aren't challenging or "up to your skill level", will you still do them? I'm a software developer. But, a few weeks ago, the Most Important Thing for me to do was get some art made and printed onto foam-core. Traditionally, that is not my job, and it doesn't match my skillset, but it needed to be done and…

We need people to "be excellent at seeing something through to completion", among other things. That's one of the really nice parts about this process, getting one of these projects done on your own time just because you think it's important is a really good signal.

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#59

Post by frankjaeger » Wed, Jan 06, 2016, 4:34 AM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #35

grayfox wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had no issues attracting excellent and talented people. Most of them would be considered "senior". You might be interested to hear that Juniors are the group most likely to be deterred by the sample. The (great) majority of candidates have backgrounds and capabilities up to or exceeding what we're asking them to do. We actually get very few under-qualified applicants. The process appeals to people who appreciat…

Or it may be an indicator of the attitude/shortsightedness of the hiring company. From the candidate perspective, one way to assess the viability of the hiring strategy is imagine if most, or a significant number, of companies doing this. This eats significantly into each candidate's time, and edges the job seeking dynamic in favor of the companies, and against the candidate since the candidate is forced to value the…

Anyone who could not only criticize but also resist straight up killing for the opportunity to work with the only and only grayfox is an anomaly. Either you are incredibly unaware, or on the next level of talented to not recognize this. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter, in which case, stop posting on HN, and start writing books. People need to hear your wisdom.

Re: The Boss Doesn’t Want Your Resume

#60

Post by frankjaeger » Wed, Jan 06, 2016, 4:34 AM UTC

Bahamut wrote: post #35

grayfox wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

We've had no issues attracting excellent and talented people. Most of them would be considered "senior". You might be interested to hear that Juniors are the group most likely to be deterred by the sample. The (great) majority of candidates have backgrounds and capabilities up to or exceeding what we're asking them to do. We actually get very few under-qualified applicants. The process appeals to people who appreciat…

Or it may be an indicator of the attitude/shortsightedness of the hiring company. From the candidate perspective, one way to assess the viability of the hiring strategy is imagine if most, or a significant number, of companies doing this. This eats significantly into each candidate's time, and edges the job seeking dynamic in favor of the companies, and against the candidate since the candidate is forced to value the…

Anyone who could not only criticize but also resist straight up killing for the opportunity to work with the only and only grayfox is an anomaly. Either you are incredibly unaware, or on the next level of talented to not recognize this. I'll give you the benefit of the doubt and assume the latter, in which case, stop posting on HN, and start writing books. People need to hear your wisdom.