Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror • Hacker News Board

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#51

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 5:01 PM UTC

mc32 wrote: post #41

jacquesm wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They already have all their lines of reason to collectively paint the west as an enemy, the west can't be made "double enemy". Oh, we absolutely can. See, we could be a passive enemy and that would be good for them, but not as good as an enemy that actually engages. That's what drives the spiral of polarization and demonization. Without the spiral it stops at the first level and their recruiting power is reduced ac…

But would being a passive enemy simply allow them to run roughshod all over the middle east, consolidate power, disrupt energy resources, cause mass exuduses, unrest, power imbalances, civil factional wars, etc. which one might consider a sizable loss to the west? I guess it depends what you mean by passive.

> But would being a passive enemy simply allow them to run roughshod all over the middle east, consolidate power, disrupt energy resources, cause mass exuduses, unrest, power imbalances, civil factional wars, etc. which one might consider a sizable loss to the west?

Collectively, the west is what did the destabilizing of the region to begin with. That is what caused them to gain the power that they have now. We created a huge power vacuum because collectively we're not prepared to pay the price for maintaining the structural integrity of the region. Starting this is easy, maintaining an orderly society in a 'western' way that does not want to be an orderly society is a lost cause.

So now we have an entirely new situation. We can choose to escalate but this will - in due course - again require that we commit ourselves to putting large numbers of people in harms way for an extended period, probably on the level that will make the Iraq wars look like Sunday outings on the beach.

> I guess it depends what you mean by passive.

Passive to me means defense, so defend our own turf, let the 'locals' work things out as much as possible without interference other than to accept refugees from the region and to actively aid refugees in leaving these regimes behind.

Leave them their oil wells and weapons but don't buy their oil, don't sell them more weapons (and serious sanctions against those that violate embargoes). Close the borders outbound. And deal with the rotten apples that make it in with the refugees as the criminals that they are.

That's not an easy path, it would lead to a ton of trouble but I believe strongly that it would lead to less trouble than the alternatives.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#52

Post by jon-wood » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 5:02 PM UTC

DougWebb wrote: post #37

mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

There was an article posted here a few weeks ago, written by a man who was held captive by ISIS for a long time. He said that he learned their ultimate goal has nothing to do with our culture or freedom. They believe armageddon is coming, that it is literaly going to be a big battle in a particular town in Syria near the Turkish border, and that the West is the enemy (descendants of the Roman empire) that their Mosle…

That being their end game really isn't even a big secret, Cracked.com (of all people) did a really good piece on this after one of their journalists read the back issues of ISIS' official magazine.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#53

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 5:06 PM UTC

mkaziz wrote: post #47

DougWebb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an article posted here a few weeks ago, written by a man who was held captive by ISIS for a long time. He said that he learned their ultimate goal has nothing to do with our culture or freedom. They believe armageddon is coming, that it is literaly going to be a big battle in a particular town in Syria near the Turkish border, and that the West is the enemy (descendants of the Roman empire) that their Mosle…

I didn't read the article, but my gut instinct would be that the people this man was held captive by were foot soldiers. They are frequently illiterate people who are fed such "prophecies" as truth. I do contend with your statement about ISIS continuing to exist because of western compassion. If the West had the means to destroy them (without harming millions of innocent civilians), the compassionate thing to do woul…

> without harming millions of innocent civilians

But that little caveat means putting a large number of our own people at risk and this is where we lack fortitude. That is what resulted in the Iraq mess, which in turn led to IS gaining a foothold.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#54

Post by jacquesm » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

acqq wrote: post #36

Retric wrote: post #23

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, and in this case they actually conducted an interview. So, we had an FBI guy in the same room with a future terrorist. But, the attack still happened. Which points to a wider issue, sure he was suspicious, but then what?

> Which points to a wider issue, sure he was suspicious, but then what? That's exactly the question to which Europe also searches for the answer now. One of the reasons everybody bends over backwards to avoid saying anything against the religions in different countries is: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blasphemy_law "In some European countries is the crime of "religious insult", which is a subset of the crime of blas…

I'm quite ashamed to see NL on that list. Really, we should know better than this. But then again, we're also still a monarchy so we have a bit of a history of believing fairy tales.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#55

Post by sandworm101 » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

ISIS and AlQaeda aren't the ones taking freedom from the west. Similar organizations have existed for hundreds of years without such impact. If it wasn't ISIS it would be something else. The source of erosion is internal. So too is the blame.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#56

Post by tremon » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 5:08 PM UTC

mkaziz wrote: post #47

DougWebb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an article posted here a few weeks ago, written by a man who was held captive by ISIS for a long time. He said that he learned their ultimate goal has nothing to do with our culture or freedom. They believe armageddon is coming, that it is literaly going to be a big battle in a particular town in Syria near the Turkish border, and that the West is the enemy (descendants of the Roman empire) that their Mosle…

I didn't read the article, but my gut instinct would be that the people this man was held captive by were foot soldiers. They are frequently illiterate people who are fed such "prophecies" as truth. I do contend with your statement about ISIS continuing to exist because of western compassion. If the West had the means to destroy them (without harming millions of innocent civilians), the compassionate thing to do woul…

> If the West had the means to destroy them (without harming millions of innocent civilians)

When the GP speaks of compassion, I think (s)he is referring to the millions of civilians there, not the fighters.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#57

Post by mahouse » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 5:12 PM UTC

ameen wrote: post #46

DougWebb wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There was an article posted here a few weeks ago, written by a man who was held captive by ISIS for a long time. He said that he learned their ultimate goal has nothing to do with our culture or freedom. They believe armageddon is coming, that it is literaly going to be a big battle in a particular town in Syria near the Turkish border, and that the West is the enemy (descendants of the Roman empire) that their Mosle…

Or Indifference? IS never really threatened U.S. or Western interests, the Paris attacks were the first time they reached so far. They (along with the Syrian regime) have been butchering Syrians by the thousands. Btw, the Daesh captive was Nicolas Henin, and he's actively campaigning against airstrikes [1] as that's exactly playing into their sick plans. And he speaks that they're deluded enough to think they'll find…

Do literally all Muslims despise the IS? After thousands of Turkish football fans starting chanting "allahu akbar" during the minute of silence for the Paris attacks, I would not agree. Who are the Muslims that support the IS?

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#58

Post by tremon » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 5:15 PM UTC

TinyRick wrote: post #31

jacquesm wrote: post #3

“Talking about it in practical terms, the answer is to target the people which you know are up to bad stuff rather than bringing in the 99.8 percent of the inhabitants there, including the vast majority of followers of Islam, who have no intention whatsoever of conducting a terrorist attack,” Are there any other terms than 'practical'? Better late than never I guess. What's funny is that this was not exactly new know…

>>All these idiotically named acts ('patriot act', 'freedom act') are named that way so that if you're against them it looks as if you're either not a patriot or against freedom. I believe the names of these acts are acronyms: USA Freedom Act [0] = Uniting and Strengthening America by Fulfilling Rights and Ending Eavesdropping, Dragnet-collection and Online Monitoring Act USA Patriot Act [1] = Uniting and Strengtheni…

They're backronyms. The wikipedia page on that actually lists the patriot act as an example.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#59

Post by kvncombo » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 5:15 PM UTC

ianopolous wrote: post #50

kvncombo wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Erosion of privacy and freedom is inevitable. Mass human breeding on earth puts so much pressure on all aspects of our existence. I believe this will necessarily lead to reduced freedom as mere survival becomes more important. Small groups of people or even individuals have so much power and can inflict terrifying damage. How else do you solve such a problem? At the end of the day, people will demand the problem is s…

Raising the lowest education level and the lowest happiness level would go a long way. i.e. a society that genuinely looks after and educates everyone. Easier said than done though.

You're absolutely right. I'm kind of pessimistic these days about the future.. Education the critical thing we need to even start moving in the right direction.

Re: Patriot Act author warns EU against dragnet response to terror

#60

Post by ergothus » Fri, Dec 04, 2015, 5:16 PM UTC

DougWebb wrote: post #37

mkaziz wrote: post #9

In my mind, the erosion of privacy and freedom - some of the most vaunted principles of the West - is the ultimate triumph of terrorist organizations like ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They can't beat us by strength of arms, so instead they're stunting our culture.

There was an article posted here a few weeks ago, written by a man who was held captive by ISIS for a long time. He said that he learned their ultimate goal has nothing to do with our culture or freedom. They believe armageddon is coming, that it is literaly going to be a big battle in a particular town in Syria near the Turkish border, and that the West is the enemy (descendants of the Roman empire) that their Mosle…

I'll also submit that The Powers That Be have learned it sucks to create a power vacuum and deal with the fallout (see: Iraq, Afghanistan for examples)

The developed nations' abilities to crush a military opponent doesn't solve all problems, something we've been aware of for a long while and had recent reinforcing lessons.

I know the US had strong roles in rebuilding both Japanese and German governments post-WWII, but those were both circumstances that were dramatically different than this. (And, since HN has lots of informed people, some of whom are doubtless facepalming at my statements, I'd love to see some resources that describe those efforts with some depth and hopefully not a one-sided view of things, just for my own enlightenment)