The Last Dalai Lama? • Hacker News Board

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#51

Post by notahacker » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 8:22 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #42

guard-of-terra wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can imagine things like what you describe (regarding Cherokee Nation) and I won't find that especially odd. But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently, making their case incomparable to that of Cherokee. Your parable is shaky. You seem to think that Dalai Lama issue is either solely about annoying China, or solely about self-presentation. It is not. People are…

> But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the majority of Tibetans were before the Chinese slaves in an absolutist monarchy/theocracy that used extremely cruel torture and punishments. (amputation of limbs, skinning, cutting off ears/noses) Let's be honest here, this whole Free Tibet business is just about pressuring the…

The Free Tibet movement in the West has always had more to do with counterculture than the US government.

I suspect most Tibetans were rather worse off during the Cultural Revolution than in the quasi-feudal system that existed before. I'm not entirely convinced they're necessarily worse off today, but the Tibetan refugees risking their lives walking across the Himalayas into an exile where they get to "meet the Lama" couldn't really be any less focused on geopolitics...

I'm not aware of any parallel Cherokee diaspora.

I don't think the Uighurs' preferences for their own cultural practices is anything to do with them paying any attention to the US either.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#52

Post by fapjacks » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 8:30 PM UTC

ivoras wrote: post #48

nkurz wrote: post #2

"The Dalai Lama’s second-oldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, helped the C.I.A. train Tibetan guerrillas in Colorado, among other places, and parachute them back into Tibet." I had no idea the US had done this. This link has more details: http://www.historynet.com/cias-secret-war-in-tibet.htm As does Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program

Some sources hold that the US hasn't ever stopped doing such shenanigans. I wonder what will be thought of articles such as https://www.washingtonpost.com/world/middle_east/iraqis-thin... a decade or two in the future.

I will make you a guarantee that these types of shenanigans have not stopped. And especially these days. If anything, it's been accelerated.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#53

Post by DominikR » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 8:41 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #51

DominikR wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the majority of Tibetans were before the Chinese slaves in an absolutist monarchy/theocracy that used extremely cruel torture and punishments. (amputation of limbs, skinning, cutting off ears/noses) Let's be honest here, this whole Free Tibet business is just about pressuring the…

The Free Tibet movement in the West has always had more to do with counterculture than the US government. I suspect most Tibetans were rather worse off during the Cultural Revolution than in the quasi-feudal system that existed before. I'm not entirely convinced they're necessarily worse off today, but the Tibetan refugees risking their lives walking across the Himalayas into an exile where they get to "meet the Lama…

Sure, I don't doubt that these people really want to secede, but undoubtably some rather large component of this is created by external support.

Throughout history nationalism, religion and ethnicity has always been used to destabilise countries, this is nothing new.

I don't put any extraordinary blame on the US for this, it's what most powerful nations are doing in their quest for even more power.

About the Cherokees: Don't know if it is due to their low numbers, or simply because the US is powerful enough to prevent this from happening. Maybe the Cherokees are happy as it is or the right people are payed off by the government.

In general this can be exploited best when a country is in severe economic trouble. For example Chechnya after the collapse of the Soviet Union. The US is not even remotely in a comparable state.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#54

Post by firstworldman » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 8:54 PM UTC

Alex3917 wrote: post #7

nkurz wrote: post #2

"The Dalai Lama’s second-oldest brother, Gyalo Thondup, helped the C.I.A. train Tibetan guerrillas in Colorado, among other places, and parachute them back into Tibet." I had no idea the US had done this. This link has more details: http://www.historynet.com/cias-secret-war-in-tibet.htm As does Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CIA_Tibetan_program

There are a couple books about it. The other place they trained them was in Ithaca, which is why there is still a big tibetan community there and that's where the Dalai Lama's summer home is. It's a pretty crazy story though; iirc after China found out about the program the CIA just disowned them rather than helping to further support or extract them, and just left them all over there to die.

Any books you'd recommend?

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#55

Post by maus42 » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 8:55 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #42

guard-of-terra wrote: post #11

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Well, I can imagine things like what you describe (regarding Cherokee Nation) and I won't find that especially odd. But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently, making their case incomparable to that of Cherokee. Your parable is shaky. You seem to think that Dalai Lama issue is either solely about annoying China, or solely about self-presentation. It is not. People are…

> But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the majority of Tibetans were before the Chinese slaves in an absolutist monarchy/theocracy that used extremely cruel torture and punishments. (amputation of limbs, skinning, cutting off ears/noses) Let's be honest here, this whole Free Tibet business is just about pressuring the…

Justifying a tyrannical government by virtue of the previous government having been a tyranny too doesn't persuade anyone.

For the US government, whatever it does is always about its interests, because that's what governments are about.

However, that's just the reason why being a small nation sucks, like any resident of a small country can tell you. Sometimes their plight even manages to gather some popular sympathy[, but as Dalai Lama can tell you, it doesn't help much anything]. The lucky ones are who happen to succeed at gaming at least two great powers against each other, instead of being surrounded by one large or its sphere of power, who will merrily invade you if it strikes their fancy.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#56

Post by omarchowdhury » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 8:58 PM UTC

notahacker wrote: post #45

Alex3917 wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Can you let us know which buddhist principles were invented by white folks (and by whom) in the past 150 years. I don't know to what extent individual principles or beliefs were created. Rather, the argument is that the religion as a whole was created by removing the parts that didn't fit the narrative. Think of it like the Jefferson Bible, but if pretty much the entire living tradition of Christianity was also rem…

That's a rather difficult argument to square with Buddhism still including two entirely separate traditions, and arguably its "purest", least syncretic and most devout forms being in those parts of the world least affected by the West...

The only thing the white folk invented in the past 150 years regarding Buddhism is their books about what they think Buddhism is.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#57

Post by DominikR » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 9:08 PM UTC

maus42 wrote: post #55

DominikR wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> But Tibetians are much more numerous and they've lost their independence much more recently Correct me if I'm wrong, but as far as I know the majority of Tibetans were before the Chinese slaves in an absolutist monarchy/theocracy that used extremely cruel torture and punishments. (amputation of limbs, skinning, cutting off ears/noses) Let's be honest here, this whole Free Tibet business is just about pressuring the…

Justifying a tyrannical government by virtue of the previous government having been a tyranny too doesn't persuade anyone. For the US government, whatever it does is always about its interests, because that's what governments are about. However, that's just the reason why being a small nation sucks, like any resident of a small country can tell you. Sometimes their plight even manages to gather some popular sympathy[…

I agree with you except for this line:

> Justifying a tyrannical government by virtue of the previous government having been a tyranny too doesn't persuade anyone.

I do not care in the slightest about the Chinese government, so I'm not trying to convince anyone about their goodness.

No government will justify itself before anyone, not even their own citizens.

Sure, certain persons and parties might change democratically but the power structure and elite behind them will fight tooth and nails against anyone threatening them.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#58

Post by guard-of-terra » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 9:29 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #53

notahacker wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Free Tibet movement in the West has always had more to do with counterculture than the US government. I suspect most Tibetans were rather worse off during the Cultural Revolution than in the quasi-feudal system that existed before. I'm not entirely convinced they're necessarily worse off today, but the Tibetan refugees risking their lives walking across the Himalayas into an exile where they get to "meet the Lama…

Sure, I don't doubt that these people really want to secede, but undoubtably some rather large component of this is created by external support. Throughout history nationalism, religion and ethnicity has always been used to destabilise countries, this is nothing new. I don't put any extraordinary blame on the US for this, it's what most powerful nations are doing in their quest for even more power. About the Cherokee…

"nationalism, religion and ethnicity has always been used to destabilise countries" They were also used to create countries in the first place.

Remove nationalism, religious and ethnical union from a country and it starts to fall apart, just like Jugoslavia did.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#59

Post by notahacker » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

DominikR wrote: post #53

notahacker wrote: post #51

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The Free Tibet movement in the West has always had more to do with counterculture than the US government. I suspect most Tibetans were rather worse off during the Cultural Revolution than in the quasi-feudal system that existed before. I'm not entirely convinced they're necessarily worse off today, but the Tibetan refugees risking their lives walking across the Himalayas into an exile where they get to "meet the Lama…

Sure, I don't doubt that these people really want to secede, but undoubtably some rather large component of this is created by external support. Throughout history nationalism, religion and ethnicity has always been used to destabilise countries, this is nothing new. I don't put any extraordinary blame on the US for this, it's what most powerful nations are doing in their quest for even more power. About the Cherokee…

I think it's palpable nonsense to suggest that the US or other outside forces are behind all or indeed many of the world's regional minority groups desires to speak their own language, practice their own religion and run their own region in their own way.

What evidence do you have to back up your insinuation the US is backing the various Uighur factions? Frankly, it's pretty insulting to their culture to imagine they'd be freely and happily assimilating Han Chinese culture if it wasn't for the nefarious plotting of Uncle Sam.

Re: The Last Dalai Lama?

#60

Post by DominikR » Thu, Dec 03, 2015, 9:57 PM UTC

guard-of-terra wrote: post #58

DominikR wrote: post #53

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Sure, I don't doubt that these people really want to secede, but undoubtably some rather large component of this is created by external support. Throughout history nationalism, religion and ethnicity has always been used to destabilise countries, this is nothing new. I don't put any extraordinary blame on the US for this, it's what most powerful nations are doing in their quest for even more power. About the Cherokee…

"nationalism, religion and ethnicity has always been used to destabilise countries" They were also used to create countries in the first place. Remove nationalism, religious and ethnical union from a country and it starts to fall apart, just like Jugoslavia did.

I like your thought but Yugoslavia is (I think) a bad example for this. (I came from there)

There was no religious or ethnical union, of that I am 100% sure, and I'm also not convinced of nationalism there.

The unifying ideology was socialism/communism.

It is understandable why this did work so well in a country with no clear religious or ethnic majority because it tends to flat out deny any ethnic/cultural differences and restrict religions and places instead the socialist ideal in the center. (all are equal)

Once nationalism was on the rise it was the end of Yugoslavia. Now in place of being a socialist comrade everyone was either Serb, Croat, Bosnian and so on and demanded their own state.