American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014) • Hacker News Board

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#51

Post by pradn » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:39 PM UTC

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #44

jseliger wrote: post #36

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I highly recommend the book "The Two Income Trap". It basically tries to prove that the transition to dual income households damaged the financial security of many families A great book. It can also be read profitably in conjunction with Matt Yglesias's The Rent is Too Damn High . School districts are weirdly tied to real estate in the U.S.; many places with good districts also have severe land-use control laws that…

> School districts are weirdly tied to real estate in the U.S. Rich people want nicer schools. These same people have a lot of influence and or control in our society, so they dictate how the money was divvied up, to make sure their kids got the best. In many other countries the money is put into a large "pot" and then redistributed from that. So most schools per student budget is similar but with adjustments for cos…

Everyone wants nicer schools. Wealthier people are more likely to be able to live in areas with good schools; they can pay for the rents and mortgages necessary to do so.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#52

Post by josephjrobison » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

"Ayelet Waldman, where the author explained that she loved her husband more than her four children."

Recently did some pre-marital counseling where they recommend that you put your spouse above your children. Seemed really strange to me and counter-intuitive. I don't know much about marriage at all, but if you think about it, the trickle-down effect does seem to make sense as setting an example is a good lesson for kids.

I think the takeaway is to keep a balance. Also, it's not like Ayelet Waldman is a revolutionary, as other old-school practitioners seem to have been recommending that advice for years.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#53

Post by nommm-nommm » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:42 PM UTC

munin wrote: post #40

> child-centric lives can lose touch with one another to the point where they have nothing left to say to one another when the kids leave home. there are couples like this because the way they made kids + 2 careers work on middle class salaries is by dividing the day in half and each parent spends one half the day with the children and the other works. after ten years of this, you don't actually know your spouse any…

There's actually some evidence that shared earning/shared parenting marriages are less likely to end in divorce.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shared_earning/shared_parentin...

I guess the hypothesis is you start to feel alone in your responsibilities and you lose touch with your spouse's life.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#54

Post by vasiliys » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:44 PM UTC

avar wrote: post #42

ajmurmann wrote: post #8

I never understood the sentiment of valuing babies over all else. To me it always seemed obvious that fresh college graduates are most valuable to society, since we just finished investing a ton of money into them. Babies on the other hand are easily replaced. I get this is mainly an emotional argument, but it's still startling to me how opposite it is to the purely economic argument I made above. In fact usually peo…

In terms of a single society it would make more economic sense to stop having children, import foreign collage graduates, and execute people once they reach retirement age. But society, luckily, isn't some autonomous macro-organism that can treat people like individual cells in your body. So when we say that we value babies above all else that's a projection of the individual aspirations of the members of that societ…

The sentiment is correct, but even an average member of society who has to choose between two children is better off with the college grad than the incessant consumer whose cortex hasn't folded yet.

The only valid explanation I can think of for our obsession with babies is evolutionary - you need some overkill hormonal persuasion to bond with babies. So every individual who has gone through such a period has some understanding of other individuals' love for babies - they're being empathetic when they hear someone say "I love my baby more than anything".

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#55

Post by Jtsummers » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:47 PM UTC

munin wrote: post #40

> child-centric lives can lose touch with one another to the point where they have nothing left to say to one another when the kids leave home. there are couples like this because the way they made kids + 2 careers work on middle class salaries is by dividing the day in half and each parent spends one half the day with the children and the other works. after ten years of this, you don't actually know your spouse any…

> the way they made kids + 2 careers work on middle class salaries is by dividing the day in half and each parent spends one half the day with the children and the other works.

Who sets up their schedules like that in the middle class? Middle class jobs don't (typically) allow that one parent could work from 7-4 and another from 4-1am.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#56

Post by such_a_casual » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:48 PM UTC

pmikesell wrote: post #48

such_a_casual wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of a 'purely economic argument', you have none. You're referring to a sunk cost: "are most valuable to society, since we just finished investing a ton of money into them" "In traditional microeconomic theory, only prospective (future) costs are relevant to an investment decision. Traditional economics proposes that economic actors should not let sunk costs influence their decisions. Doing so would not be rat…

He has a perfectly valid economic argument. He's not saying it's the sunk cost that provides the value, it's the added overall value they provide by having a college education. The cost of getting that education could be a reasonable proxy for the value of the education, though imperfect. People usually make the sunk cost mistake when they aren't evaluating the immediate potential of the options, just the emotional t…

"He's not saying it's the sunk cost that provides the value"

Actually, that's exactly what they said and I even quoted them on it.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#57

Post by UnoriginalGuy » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

pradn wrote: post #51

UnoriginalGuy wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> School districts are weirdly tied to real estate in the U.S. Rich people want nicer schools. These same people have a lot of influence and or control in our society, so they dictate how the money was divvied up, to make sure their kids got the best. In many other countries the money is put into a large "pot" and then redistributed from that. So most schools per student budget is similar but with adjustments for cos…

Everyone wants nicer schools. Wealthier people are more likely to be able to live in areas with good schools; they can pay for the rents and mortgages necessary to do so.

I don't understand what it is you're trying to add.

I am talking about an issue of fairness. You're just pointing out the status quo.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#58

Post by vlehto » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:49 PM UTC

elinchrome wrote: post #16

ajmurmann wrote: post #8

I never understood the sentiment of valuing babies over all else. To me it always seemed obvious that fresh college graduates are most valuable to society, since we just finished investing a ton of money into them. Babies on the other hand are easily replaced. I get this is mainly an emotional argument, but it's still startling to me how opposite it is to the purely economic argument I made above. In fact usually peo…

> Babies on the other hand are easily replaced. Someone has never had a baby.

College graduate is just as difficult in the early stage. But needs additional 20 years of expensive fermentation.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#59

Post by nommm-nommm » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:50 PM UTC

ajmurmann wrote: post #8

I never understood the sentiment of valuing babies over all else. To me it always seemed obvious that fresh college graduates are most valuable to society, since we just finished investing a ton of money into them. Babies on the other hand are easily replaced. I get this is mainly an emotional argument, but it's still startling to me how opposite it is to the purely economic argument I made above. In fact usually peo…

> fresh college graduates are most valuable to society

This seems to be a popular opinion on here and I really don't understand that. In fact its kinda fucked up. I can only guess there's a lot of fresh college grads on HN.

It takes all kinds to make the world go 'round. I certainly don't want a society made up of fresh college grads who think they know it all.

Re: American parenting is killing the American marriage (2014)

#60

Post by such_a_casual » Sun, Nov 08, 2015, 9:53 PM UTC

vasiliys wrote: post #49

such_a_casual wrote: post #31

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In terms of a 'purely economic argument', you have none. You're referring to a sunk cost: "are most valuable to society, since we just finished investing a ton of money into them" "In traditional microeconomic theory, only prospective (future) costs are relevant to an investment decision. Traditional economics proposes that economic actors should not let sunk costs influence their decisions. Doing so would not be rat…

What's the future cost of getting a college grad to become productive? Nothing. Future cost of making a baby productive? ~20 years of varying levels of investment.

The point is that the cost of the college grad is not a basis for economic decision making. Once the cost has been accrued, it's sunk. If we're making a decision based on whether or not we want to sacrifice the baby or the college grad, we can't take into account sunk cost of the college grad (if we're using economics as the basis of our argument).