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The West Is Choked by Fear

spiegel.de

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Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#51

Post by rbanffy »

bad_user wrote: post #49
mtinkerhess wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Agreed. Comments should be voted according to how much they add to the discussion, not by whether you agree with the author's opinion.

I don't agree ... votes should be given for any reason a reader wants. Sometimes the actual post is so stupid and off-topic that it doesn't deserve a response ... and the rating system is there in the first place to distinguish between the good posts and the bad ones. Granted ... this particular comment was pretty much on topic, and contains a very popular point-of-view in many circles ... so personally I haven't dow…

You should never downvote a comment you can demolish with an argument. It's not as educational.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#52

Post by jimbokun »

Rod wrote: post #42
jimbokun wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better? As long as they are not trying to coerce you to live the way they do, why do you care? Let them preach all they want, and just ignore them. I frankly believe here in the U.S. we do a better job of assimilating people because we do not subscribe to "adapt to our customs, or move back to where you came from." We demand the freedom to believe whatever we wan…

"What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better?" Suppose that you invite people to your house. Rules of etiquette say that the guests should not tell you how to live your life. Nobody likes to be told what to do, nor how to live. Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests. Guests should keep their mouths shut until asked for their opinion. The Muslims I know who have adapted…

"Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests"

Huh? The Muslims in European countries are not citizens? At what point do they stop being guests? Are they all just there for a short stay and plan to be leaving soon?

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#53

Post by theotherside »

Rod wrote: post #5
theotherside wrote: post #4

I am a Muslim. I created a new account, as some will hold that against me. This is just picking on someone who is too weak, uneducated and inarticulate to be able to defend themselves. Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about. You don't have, and never had, the right to slander someone in order to pick a fight. If I went to a bar, found the biggest and dumbest asshole in there and called his mother a filth…

Danish people tend to be confrontational. At least that's the impression I got when I lived there. Such a cartoon could only come from Denmark. It's offensive and distasteful, and the author should have kept in mind that insulting 1 billion people is a bad idea. His mistake. However, what I do know is that Westerners in Muslim countries tend to play by the local rules (I am not talking of the U.S. Military in Iraq).…

For the record I totally agree with you. Being a minority with a relatively short history in the West, Muslims should certainly carry themselves with fitting humility. Indeed, there is extensive basis in Islam for this.

Many understand that. Then again, many are malcontents, uneducated, unemployed and so on. This does not excuse wrongdoings, but it goes some way to explain it. And the solution, from society's point of view, and assuming we actually want a solution, is not to tease the wounded animal just to prove a point.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#54

Post by Rod »

jimbokun wrote: post #52
Rod wrote: post #42

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"What's wrong with them preaching that their values are better?" Suppose that you invite people to your house. Rules of etiquette say that the guests should not tell you how to live your life. Nobody likes to be told what to do, nor how to live. Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests. Guests should keep their mouths shut until asked for their opinion. The Muslims I know who have adapted…

"Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests" Huh? The Muslims in European countries are not citizens? At what point do they stop being guests? Are they all just there for a short stay and plan to be leaving soon?

Citizens and guests are not the same thing. You're reading the word "guest" too literally. In Europe, anyone from a different culture is a "guest" until proven otherwise. You may be a citizen, vote, pay your taxes... but until you have been assimilated by the local culture, you are a "guest".

Moreover, not all Muslims in Europe are equally "guest"-like. Turkish, for instance, who are viewed as somewhat secular by hard-core Muslim countries, are much closer to European culture than, say, Pakistani. In fact, the Turkish from Istanbul are actually quite European, geographically and historically. Indonesian Muslims, by contrast, are obviously much farther culturally.

I knew a guy from Iran who moved to Sweden. He refused to drink, which is OK because it's against his religion. But he also refused to go out at night, for some mysterious reason. He assumed that college students who went out on Saturday nights were partaking in drunken orgies, and thought that Swedish women were whores. After a few months of being miserable and lonely, he decided to see things, instead of judging people he did not even know. I think he was slightly disappointed when he realized that, after all, young people did not engage in drunken orgies on Saturday nights :-D

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#55

Post by yummyfajitas »

whichdokta wrote: post #47
akamaka wrote: post #16

I've heard the reasoning in this article before, and it's deeply flawed. It's true that we in the West have the right to offend, but being a troll doesn't make you a righteous defender of freedom. . Those cartoons weren't some type of brilliant artwork, they were simple trolling. While I'll stand up for someone's right to be a troll, they certainly shouldn't expect my support and respect. Instead, that is reserved fo…

"In the name of the great FSM (oh great and merciful one) I hereby declare thumb war upon you and call upon all my followers on hte twitters to hunt you down and dislocate both your opposable appendages for the great blasphemy you have committed in your public and offensive denials that trolls are also sacred to the sacrosanct principle of freedom of speech and thought." Do you like that now punk? Thought not. You se…

The point of the original article was not to defend the trolls but rather to point out the fact that civil society is becoming increasingly tolerant of violent threats when they are made by members of fundamentalist religious movements.

I don't think we are tolerant of fundamentalist religious movements; we certainly would not excuse Christians for threatening artists [1]. We are tolerant of bad behavior by non-westerners because we feel that criticizing them makes us racist.

[1] For an example of this, witness the reaction when Guiliani suggested defunding a museum over the "Piss Christ" exhibit.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#56

Post by rbanffy »

jimbokun wrote: post #26
rbanffy wrote: post #6

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Fuck freedom of speech, it's not what this is about." It's exactly what this is about. As an almost Atheist (lacking the needed faith to really be one) I find the Quram mildly disturbing (as I do with other sacred texts, the Bible included) in that it proposes to be the absolute truth that admits no questioning. I respect, however, your right to your faith. You may believe in whatever you like, and I will defend you…

"Would I be offended if they were about Christ" That is not the point. Even if you were supremely offended, you still do not have the right to kill the person who offended you. You can draw attention to the offenders insensitivity, decry their judgement, and comprehensively denounce what was said as vile, uncivilized, and hateful. You can even call for people to boycott the publisher or for the dismissal of the perso…

"That is not the point."

The point is that it's childish to be offended by this. And, while we are at it, nobody has the right not to be offended. The risk of being offended is a pre-requisite for the right to offend others (as the Quram does with Christians and Jews alike, by "complementing" their sacred texts and, thus, considering them incomplete religions).

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#57

Post by jimbokun »

Rod wrote: post #54
jimbokun wrote: post #52

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"Except for Muslims in the Balkans, most Muslims in Europe are guests" Huh? The Muslims in European countries are not citizens? At what point do they stop being guests? Are they all just there for a short stay and plan to be leaving soon?

Citizens and guests are not the same thing. You're reading the word "guest" too literally. In Europe, anyone from a different culture is a "guest" until proven otherwise. You may be a citizen, vote, pay your taxes... but until you have been assimilated by the local culture, you are a "guest". Moreover, not all Muslims in Europe are equally "guest"-like. Turkish, for instance, who are viewed as somewhat secular by har…

"In Europe, anyone from a different culture is a "guest" until proven otherwise."

This much better explains why the U.S. better assimilates immigrants (Muslim or otherwise) than Europe, than anything I said. We have our immigration issues, but I have never heard anyone refer to a legal U.S. citizen as a "guest." It also helps me understand some of the frustration European Muslim immigrants must feel, being pressured to give up their own heritage, culture, and beliefs or be ostracized.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#58

Post by Rod »

jimbokun wrote: post #57
Rod wrote: post #54

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Citizens and guests are not the same thing. You're reading the word "guest" too literally. In Europe, anyone from a different culture is a "guest" until proven otherwise. You may be a citizen, vote, pay your taxes... but until you have been assimilated by the local culture, you are a "guest". Moreover, not all Muslims in Europe are equally "guest"-like. Turkish, for instance, who are viewed as somewhat secular by har…

"In Europe, anyone from a different culture is a "guest" until proven otherwise." This much better explains why the U.S. better assimilates immigrants (Muslim or otherwise) than Europe, than anything I said. We have our immigration issues, but I have never heard anyone refer to a legal U.S. citizen as a "guest." It also helps me understand some of the frustration European Muslim immigrants must feel, being pressured…

"It also helps me understand some of the frustration European Muslim immigrants must feel, being pressured to give up their own heritage, culture, and beliefs or be ostracized."

Oh, come on. Do you think that Muslims moving to the U.S. don't have to give up anything? All immigrants have to be give up something, but they don't have to give up all: their own heritage, culture, and beliefs. That sounds melodramatic.

It's as simple as this: when you move to a new country, you must adopt the local culture. That does not mean that you must give up your original culture entirely. No one said that they have to be incompatible. If you fail to adopt the culture of your new country, you are, essentially, insulting your hosts... and you will be ostracized in return, which is the natural human response in this situation.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#59

Post by CWuestefeld »

toothcomb wrote: post #9

In the UK at least, we deal with difficult subjects through satire. But where do you draw the line? I am one for open - although much material on the web is offensive (as seen from me). I'd have rather the images were reprinted, and have the whole thing forgotten about. But there was some gesture of respect and sensitivity shown by the west deriding the work. The debate has also come up with the turn around of the BB…

But where do you draw the line?

In a free society there should be no line. A person should be free to say absolutely anything. There is certainly a possibility of causing harm by way of your speech, but this should be handled post hoc, with a court determining damages.

America partially observes this with a watered-down doctrine of prior restraint, but it's got enough exceptions that it's not worth so much.

Re: The West Is Choked by Fear

#60

Post by rglovejoy »

unexpected wrote: post #48
rglovejoy wrote: post #18

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The difference is that the Holocaust is something that really happened, with eyewitnesses and documents to prove it. The stuff in the Bible or the Koran is a matter of faith, and can't be proven by the scientific method. Personally, I think that the Bible and the Koran are a bunch of fairy tales written a long time ago to frighten people into doing things that will keep them from going to hell.

I agree with you completely, but Muslims believe that the Koran is literal and that everything in it is 100% true. They believe that the Koran is the result of a scientific method, and that every character in a story is a 100% true eyewitness account, and that the Koran is as 100% accurate as a well researched book on World War II would be today. I've noticed that people of other faiths (Christians, Hindus, Jews) ten…

I really can't see how Muslims can think that the Koran is the result of a scientific method. This is a book whose contents were supposedly dictated to Muhammed by the angel Gabriel. This is a supernatural claim, not the natural. If people want to believe that the word of God was transmitted to human ears by an angel, that's fine, but please don't drag science into it.
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