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Google Brain Residency Program

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Re: Google Brain Residency Program

#51

Post by jofer »

niels_olson wrote: post #9
compactmani wrote: post #2

I stopped here: The residency program is similar to a top Master’s or PhD program in deep learning. If you accept that a Master's program is contained within a PhD program, and this residency is similar to a PhD program in deep learning from a top school, then this would be the fastest PhD-like (revised from equivalent which is too strong of a claim) program ever. Only 12 months and a google badge!

I submit the connections at Google are unbelievable. It seems reasonable that you could in fact learn substantially faster in that environment. I don't know if you can cram 6-7 years into one, but maybe in 2-3.

A PhD isn't so much about learning the material as it is about learning to manage and complete projects. Your job is to identify unsolved problems, come up with ideas to solve them, and carry it through to a few completed research projects. Depending on your field, a lot of this can become more managing logistics and people than "pure" research.

In my experience (which, admittedly, has only involved much less flexible corporations than Google), you don't get to the level of responsibility you have as a PhD student or postdoc until you've been with a large corporation for >20 years.

I admit I have a slightly skewed view, but I've very skeptical that this is anywhere close to a complete PhD program.

It looks a lot more like a 1-year internship on an R&D team. Still a very good and useful thing, but you're not the one responsible for completion of projects.

Re: Google Brain Residency Program

#52

Post by lordCarbonFiber »

amelius wrote: post #46
pookeh wrote: post #12

Given questionable academia politics, low to non-existent pay for PhD candidates as TAs, grants being mostly consumed by the school, profs acting as middle managers rather than true mentors, race to the bottom for quantity over quality of papers because of desperate PhD qualifications in order to then jump start careers (not to mention wasteful research for the sake of a PhD badge)...I think this is a great initiativ…

Perhaps if Google paid taxes like the rest of us, universities would stand more of a chance to do things right.

Because effective corporate tax rates have anything to do with state legislators that cut higher education funding for easy votes (9/10 guy who cuts taxes beats guy who wants to raise them)? Or do you think that private universities somehow care about google's tax rate?

Re: Google Brain Residency Program

#53

Post by fixermark »

amelius wrote: post #46
pookeh wrote: post #12

Given questionable academia politics, low to non-existent pay for PhD candidates as TAs, grants being mostly consumed by the school, profs acting as middle managers rather than true mentors, race to the bottom for quantity over quality of papers because of desperate PhD qualifications in order to then jump start careers (not to mention wasteful research for the sake of a PhD badge)...I think this is a great initiativ…

Perhaps if Google paid taxes like the rest of us, universities would stand more of a chance to do things right.

Because of all those unfair taxes universities are paying?

Last I checked, the universities in my city get their land tax-free, given that they are non-profits. Not many American corporations can claim the same.

Re: Google Brain Residency Program

#54

Post by arjunrc »

rubidium wrote: post #44
pookeh wrote: post #12

Given questionable academia politics, low to non-existent pay for PhD candidates as TAs, grants being mostly consumed by the school, profs acting as middle managers rather than true mentors, race to the bottom for quantity over quality of papers because of desperate PhD qualifications in order to then jump start careers (not to mention wasteful research for the sake of a PhD badge)...I think this is a great initiativ…

Eh, there's a lot of good in academia too. It's just the people who have good experiences are busy with their lives for the most part. My experience was great. I got paid to do 6 years of learning and experimental work by the government (thank you DOD and NSF) on the coldest states of matter in the universe. I traveled the world for free and hang out with Nobel prize winners. I was surrounded by bright and a few worl…

Mind if you share the University you went to?

I'm a Post Grad from Gatech myself, and from what I've seen this wasn't the norm.

Also, I wonder how different the pay/career options are for a PhD in industry vs. having a Masters in the same field.

Re: Google Brain Residency Program

#55

Post by an0nym1ty »

j_juggernaut wrote: post #36

This is fantastic! Though it's not clear how much product/service engineering is required.

It seems to be listed as a software engineering position (and are likely paid through the same construct, since participants are required to be eligible for work in the US). I would think they are paid as entry level software engineers, but that's all conjecture.

Re: Google Brain Residency Program

#56

Post by eloisant »

fixermark wrote: post #53
amelius wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps if Google paid taxes like the rest of us, universities would stand more of a chance to do things right.

Because of all those unfair taxes universities are paying? Last I checked, the universities in my city get their land tax-free, given that they are non-profits. Not many American corporations can claim the same.

Because if they paid their taxes, maybe universities would get more public fundings and wouldn't have to beg for private fundings.

Re: Google Brain Residency Program

#57

Post by ForHackernews »

m0dc wrote: post #17

At what point does it make sense for Google-likes to educate their own workforce, skipping the university model entirely? They've already created a B.A. substitute by sponsoring Udacity's nanodegree programs, and now they're working on the other end of the spectrum with a masters / PhD equivalent. Assume these companies have an excellent selection process (obviously a big 'if'). Could they pluck bright students strai…

> At what point does it make sense for Google-likes to educate their own workforce, skipping the university model entirely?

Never. You may be too young to remember this, but it used to be very common for companies to hire employees and then train them to do the jobs the company needed done.

Eventually, companies realized that it was much more cost-effective to foist off the expense of training onto employees themselves (and, indirectly onto taxpayers through federal financial aid) so it's become rare for companies to have any kind of formal training program. They expect potential employees to go heavily into debt training themselves, and then hope to find somebody who is already trained for their exact job role.

Google is no different from other companies in this regard: Training people is expensive, and if they can avoid that expense, they will avoid it.

Re: Google Brain Residency Program

#58

Post by arcanus »

arjunrc wrote: post #54
rubidium wrote: post #44

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eh, there's a lot of good in academia too. It's just the people who have good experiences are busy with their lives for the most part. My experience was great. I got paid to do 6 years of learning and experimental work by the government (thank you DOD and NSF) on the coldest states of matter in the universe. I traveled the world for free and hang out with Nobel prize winners. I was surrounded by bright and a few worl…

Mind if you share the University you went to? I'm a Post Grad from Gatech myself, and from what I've seen this wasn't the norm. Also, I wonder how different the pay/career options are for a PhD in industry vs. having a Masters in the same field.

I had a similar experience to rubidium. (Texas Ph.d., here, although in computational science, not a vile experimentalist ;) )

I've seldom seen an argument suggesting that the pay between Ph.d. and masters is substantial, or even advantageous (on average). Ph.d. is about becoming an expert and leader in a research field. It is not about the $$ or ROI.

On the other hand, in terms of career options, the differences are often quite substantial. Ph.d. is much more likely to be in a small research team than in the line of fire for a deliverable. Much more likely to be working in a laboratory somewhat independently/autonomously. Because of the predilection towards independent, high-risk/reward work, I have seen some recruiters and VP/engineering who are hesitant to add doctorates to typical engineering teams, as they gravitate towards different sorts of problems.

Re: Google Brain Residency Program

#59

Post by dboreham »

amelius wrote: post #46
pookeh wrote: post #12

Given questionable academia politics, low to non-existent pay for PhD candidates as TAs, grants being mostly consumed by the school, profs acting as middle managers rather than true mentors, race to the bottom for quantity over quality of papers because of desperate PhD qualifications in order to then jump start careers (not to mention wasteful research for the sake of a PhD badge)...I think this is a great initiativ…

Perhaps if Google paid taxes like the rest of us, universities would stand more of a chance to do things right.

Probably not a good idea to start a thread on this, but...it irks me every time I see one of these "BigCo only pays $5.34 in taxes despite making $35,923,233 in operating profit" comments.

Corporations, like the rest of us, pay taxes on the money they make (profit). Profit may be reduced, perhaps to zero, intentionally, by paying money made to people (employees, shareholders, managers). Those people like the rest of us pay tax on that income. I assert that provided tax is paid on the money by someone, somewhere, that's just fine and I'm ok with the corporation itself not paying any (income) tax. Obviously they should pay property taxes, employer payroll taxes and so on.

Since the marginal tax rate on corporate income is much higher than most individual's marginal tax rate (in the USA specifically), company managers are strongly motivated to aim for low to zero profit and hence zero tax by either spending money or paying it to employees or shareholders (who are liable for the tax on that income).

Of course, real life is a bit more complex -- corporations and individuals can reduce or evade tax through jurisdiction arbitrage, various other tricks. I don't support those things. I do support the goal to have individual people pay tax, not corporations. That also seems to be the motivating principal behind the US tax code at present.

Re: Google Brain Residency Program

#60

Post by amelius »

dboreham wrote: post #59
amelius wrote: post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Perhaps if Google paid taxes like the rest of us, universities would stand more of a chance to do things right.

Probably not a good idea to start a thread on this, but...it irks me every time I see one of these "BigCo only pays $5.34 in taxes despite making $35,923,233 in operating profit" comments. Corporations, like the rest of us, pay taxes on the money they make (profit). Profit may be reduced, perhaps to zero, intentionally, by paying money made to people (employees, shareholders, managers). Those people like the rest of…

There are a lot of smaller companies paying tax on profit right now. If you cancel that form of tax, the money needs to come from somewhere. Hence, income tax (and salaries) will increase and things will be fair. So that scenario would be perfectly fine with me.

This is, of course, no excuse for Google not paying taxes at this moment.

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