What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech • Hacker News Board

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#51

Post by calibraxis » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:49 PM UTC

gaius wrote: post #7

if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines This would seem to be a bit of a bait-and-switch... If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing t…

> If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing that makes you want to do it?

If that's not rhetorical, I'm uninterested in "computer parts and tech magazines". They're just corporate blahblahblah selling technojunk. But I have zillions of books on computing. More interesting to read about the computing roads society didn't take.

Even with books, I probaby don't empathize with most readers... tech isn't a smorgasbord I wish to shovel down indiscriminately. Most of it tastes like crap; some is entrancing.

Anyway, most computing is bureaucratic rather than poetic, as anthropologist Graeber puts it. On social media, people constantly fill out forms. (http://thebaffler.com/salvos/of-flying-cars-and-the-declinin...)

And of course, ends matter if tech isn't just masturbation. Why ultimately care about computing? What about a universe full of other intellectual pursuits?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#52

Post by Mz » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

mwhuang2 wrote: post #46

I'm a hardcore fan of My Little Pony. Gender stereotypes mean nothing to me.

Yet, it appears that you will assume that we will assume that you are male. Why? Because you are on HN? Is this not buying into gender stereotypes?

(I am a woman. I am sometimes referred to as "he" on HN. I am quite open about my gender and it is specified in my profile. But the default assumption here is that anyone talking must be male -- because tech. This is accepting a stereotype.)

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#53

Post by pkaye » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

jkyle wrote: post #24

mpweiher wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. Exactly: both boys and girls get strong negative feedback for being nerdy. Yet, somehow more boys are sufficiently interested that they find their interest more important than the negative feedback.

> Yet, somehow more boys are sufficiently interested that they find their interest more important than the negative feedback. In these scenarios, boys find groups that are supportive. In their case the video game playing, computer oriented, math/physics/etc. "nerds" are one such social group. The entire point of the article is that those same groups are not supportive for women and girls. It has nothing to do with th…

"It's that they find a safe haven in those social groups where they are not bullied and are inclusive." Is this last live referring to the "nerds" or women/girls? Because "nerds" deal with they same issues.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#54

Post by [deleted] » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

jkyle wrote: post #24

mpweiher wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. Exactly: both boys and girls get strong negative feedback for being nerdy. Yet, somehow more boys are sufficiently interested that they find their interest more important than the negative feedback.

> Yet, somehow more boys are sufficiently interested that they find their interest more important than the negative feedback. In these scenarios, boys find groups that are supportive. In their case the video game playing, computer oriented, math/physics/etc. "nerds" are one such social group. The entire point of the article is that those same groups are not supportive for women and girls. It has nothing to do with th…

[deleted]

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#55

Post by gaius » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

bjornstjerne wrote: post #43

> In fact, Dr. Cheryan’s research shows that young men tend not to major in English for the same reasons women don’t pick computer science: They compare their notions of who they are to their stereotypes of English majors and decide they won’t fit in. I wonder how long it will take for humanities departments to adopt a more inclusive culture? Why must our obsessive hand-wringing be be reserved exclusively for compute…

Why must our obsessive hand-wringing be be reserved exclusively for computer science and engineering, which are mostly hidden and do not set the wider cultural narrative

Because now there's money in it. No-one cared about this when the IT department was at the bottom of the corporate pecking order. No-one cares that refuse collection is almost exclusively male, but that's a job of real social importance...

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#56

Post by jonesb6 » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:50 PM UTC

jkyle wrote: post #24

mpweiher wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. Exactly: both boys and girls get strong negative feedback for being nerdy. Yet, somehow more boys are sufficiently interested that they find their interest more important than the negative feedback.

> Yet, somehow more boys are sufficiently interested that they find their interest more important than the negative feedback. In these scenarios, boys find groups that are supportive. In their case the video game playing, computer oriented, math/physics/etc. "nerds" are one such social group. The entire point of the article is that those same groups are not supportive for women and girls. It has nothing to do with th…

Being a software engineer I've been involved in this discussion for several years now. And I don't think it ever clicked with me so much as with this comment. Guys do find groups that are supportive, be it something like an MMO community, card game community, robotics clubs etc. While girls also exist in these domains they are pretty consistently outsiders. At older ages they will receive a ton of attention, much of which I would describe as predatory, and it is constantly brought up that they are attention-seeking if they actually embrace the space (stream on Twitch or what have you). I believe at younger ages they are just simply viewed as odd-balls who are tolerated rather then truly accepted.

Previously when viewing a thread like this I would take a perspective of "It's not discrimination, they just don't want to do it". Now I want to think about it some more in the context of what I just said.

As a corollary however, is it really a good thing to push a gender towards a particular field? Anecdotally in the case of SE there seems to be a huge amount of anxiety, depression, and various social issues, that comes with the work load. I often wonder if my life would be better had I never taken to computers. Interesting food for thought, do any of us really know what's "best for us" on a societal level?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#57

Post by gaius » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:52 PM UTC

the_mitsuhiko wrote: post #22

gaius wrote: post #7

if they are shown a classroom (whether virtual or real) decorated not with “Star Wars” posters, science-fiction books, computer parts and tech magazines, but with a more neutral décor — art and nature posters, coffee makers, plants and general-interest magazines This would seem to be a bit of a bait-and-switch... If you aren't interested in "computer parts and tech magazines" then what exactly is it about computing t…

I don't see how this is bait and switch. I am a programmer and I cant't stand star wars or the vast majority of science fiction. Neither do I enjoy running around with geeky tshirts. You do not have to be nerdy to enjoy working with computers.

I am a programmer and I cant't stand star wars or the vast majority of science fiction

Do you expect your colleagues not to mention or discuss these things in your presence?

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#58

Post by zamalek » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:53 PM UTC

jkyle wrote: post #16

zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

> Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. The key is to make it a priority to move to an area where all the families promote a culture that views academic excellence as a good thing. I know this isn't available to everyone due to financial limitations. But it's probably available to more than realize it.

> academic excellence as a good thing.

That's not all that is required. By the time you get to where "real" academic excellence matters (college) you have already made a choice based on what you have been exposed to. I'm talking about exposing children to as many professions as possible with no pressure from their childhood peers to fit into the more archaic gender role.

However, that is a brilliant way to curb the really damaging bullying.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#59

Post by rewqfdsa » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:53 PM UTC

zamalek wrote: post #5

We've known this for a while, it boils down to: barbies. Fixing this problem is really, really hard. Assuming I gave my daughters equal access to both barbies and chemistry kits, which would they choose? Kids want to fit in with their friends. Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. What does that lead to? The child choosing their gender stereotype (applies both ways) so that they can fit in. It's what th…

I believe that girls and boys naturally (either through differences in neural architecture, hormone exposure, or early acculturation) simply have different average preferences, and that these preferences manifest over their lifetimes as differences in life stories and career choices.

I don't think this difference is a problem we need to solve. Diversity is supposed to make our culture richer, right? If so, why are some people trying so hard to make us all the same?

Of course we shouldn't artificial barriers to non-gender-normative career choices --- but gender disparity in a particular field is not itself evidence that these barriers exist. We've already done quite a bit to draw women into technical professions. Whatever disparity remains is on them.

Re: What Really Keeps Women Out of Tech

#60

Post by sheepmullet » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 8:54 PM UTC

jkyle wrote: post #24

mpweiher wrote: post #17

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Boy nerds get beaten up, girl nerds get ostracised. Exactly: both boys and girls get strong negative feedback for being nerdy. Yet, somehow more boys are sufficiently interested that they find their interest more important than the negative feedback.

> Yet, somehow more boys are sufficiently interested that they find their interest more important than the negative feedback. In these scenarios, boys find groups that are supportive. In their case the video game playing, computer oriented, math/physics/etc. "nerds" are one such social group. The entire point of the article is that those same groups are not supportive for women and girls. It has nothing to do with th…

> It has nothing to do with them being so strong and manly that they can stand up to the bullies and pursue computer science anyway!

The way bullying works with boys and girls is very different. A boys greatest wish when bullied is to be left alone by the bullies. A girls greatest wish is to avoid being excluded. In general anyway.

As long as I have enough good friends, I don't really care what anyone else thinks of me. My wife on the other hand would be incredibly distressed to find out 80% of her colleagues etc disliked her.