The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis • Hacker News Board

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#51

Post by dogma1138 » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 10:33 PM UTC

DominikD wrote: post #46

dogma1138 wrote: post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Only 50,000 or so Polish Jews survived the Holocaust, the Germans have kept quite meticulous records and about 3.3M Polish Jews were killed during WW2.

If I were responsible for counting in such circumstances as they were, I'd bump up the figures to make myself look good. For the same reason communist gov in Poland diminished casualties caused by Soviet actions. Self reporting is rarely accurate.

It's based on pretty solid evidence from multiple sources (German, Russian, Polish records, Jewish congress records and interviews with both survives and camp workers) this is now entering David Icke's territory so have a good day.

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#52

Post by dalke » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 10:44 PM UTC

ufmace wrote: post #31

I tend to think that these kinds of summaries kinda miss the point. Yes, it's technically true that if the oppressed Jews had a lot more guns, they might have lasted longer, or took more Germans with them, or survived the war or something. But the real issue is more the mindset and culture they had than the weapons and the laws around them. First, it bears repeating that the vast majority of Jews killed were Polish,…

I think it's hard to argue about specific Jewish mindset when it comes to the Holocaust.

While some six million Jews were massacred, there were another five million non-Jewish victims of Nazi mass murders.

Any thesis that depends on the mindset and culture of Jews must necessarily fail to explain the millions of non-Jewish Ukrainians that were murdered.

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#53

Post by dalke » Sun, Oct 11, 2015, 11:14 PM UTC

merpnderp wrote: post #45

Throwawayxtu wrote: post #10

Ben Carson's comments weren't in a void: it's long been an NRA hobbyhorse that the holocaust wouldn't have happened if only the Jews had guns. He's just repeating a long-stated claim. The problem is that for those events in WWII where such a claim can be tested -- for example, the Ghetto Uprising -- the claim fails miserably. In the Ghetto Uprising, the Nazis lost 300 soldiers and the Jews lost at least 13,000 people…

But significant resources were diverted. Around 2,000 Nazi soldiers were tied down by around 1,000 Jewish resistance fighters armed with ancient revolvers and molotov cocktails. And they were tied down for longer than it took the German army to conquer all of Poland and France. Holding up 2,000 soldiers for a month isn't a big deal in the scheme of millions of soldiers. But when it's done by only 1,000 incredibly poo…

Had the Germans been facing more and better armed civilians, they would have used different and more effective tactics.

Instead, the Germans decided to deport the Jews. Had they just gone from the start shelled/bombed the ghetto, and set it on fire, they would have lost many fewer soldiers and taken less time.

Also, the Wikipedia page says the backbone of the German troops were '821 Waffen-SS paramilitary soldiers from five SS Panzergrenadier reserve and training battalions and one SS cavalry reserve and training battalion'. These are not the prime troops that would be on the front lines.

That's not to say there was no effect, but I don't think it's reasonable to say "significant".

Also, a complete tally would need to subtract from the 2,000 count the number of German soldiers that were used to maintain the ghetto.

Re: The Warsaw Ghetto Uprising: Armed Jews vs. Nazis

#54

Post by dalke » Mon, Oct 12, 2015, 12:46 AM UTC

dalke wrote: post #50

dogma1138 wrote: post #27

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes they did, but again it's not the same situation exactly there were plenty of Jews that escaped the concentration camps, and later the death camps in Poland and joined the resistance but the majority of them couldn't. I made it quite clear that arming a population might not have a clear impact on the amount of deaths, but it will have a clear impact on the way they died. The Polish people didn't "had" to fight, at…

> If more Jews could revolt the final solution might not have happened, not in the way it did anyhow, Your conclusion is a bit tautological - if things were different then they wouldn't have happened the same way. > the Germans could only execute it because they have had very little internal and external resistance in doing so. Jews were not the only ones being killed. Everything you say should apply to Ukraine. Quot…

(My apologies about messing up the quotes. The paragraph stating "> If there was a ..." is from you. The previous two paragraphs are from Wikipedia.)