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Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

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Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#51

Post by tboyd47 »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #43
tboyd47 wrote: post #38

One thing I like to reflect on when seeing this pictures is the vast difference in the number of people present at the hajj. It's truly orders of magnitude more. This huge increase in pilgrims over the last century is because of new technology like air travel, and the peace the world has experienced over the past few decades that allows people to move freely across the world. But it is due to the efforts of the Saudi…

Wait ... "Not connected to money"?! How is this different from building a movie theatre complex, or Disneyland? Why would we imagine its not all about profit at root? I'm not that generous.

Hajj visas are very restrictive. You aren't allowed to go anywhere except Mecca and Medina, and you're only allowed to stay for the length of hajj plus a few days extra for travel. And many of the people who go to hajj have spent their life's savings just to get there. So not a lot of foreign money is flowing, at least not compared to those other places.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#52

Post by yawz »

tboyd47 wrote: post #38

One thing I like to reflect on when seeing this pictures is the vast difference in the number of people present at the hajj. It's truly orders of magnitude more. This huge increase in pilgrims over the last century is because of new technology like air travel, and the peace the world has experienced over the past few decades that allows people to move freely across the world. But it is due to the efforts of the Saudi…

> "not connected to money..."

Kaaba has always been about trade/commerce/money, since well before Muhammad and Islam.

It is not a coincidence that Muhammad's tribe had the control of Kaaba where pagan pilgrims came before Islam to revere their many gods (whose representations (statues, icons, figures, etc.) were placed around Kaaba). And, very conveniently, it remained to be a holy place in Islam where each and every Muslim who can afford it must visit at least once during their lifetime.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#53

Post by _xnmw »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #44
tdees40 wrote: post #11

Mecca seems like a pretty fascinating place. It's a terrible shame non-Muslims are banned.

These are legitimate questions - how do they know who is Muslim and who is not Muslim? Do they check before you get to the camps?

There is practically no enforcement of the rule. There are highway signs on the way to Mecca, and that's about it. Unless you do something clearly unislamic in public, like drink alcohol, in which case you will get arrested regardless of whether you are Muslim.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#54

Post by niyazpk »

JoeAltmaier wrote: post #43
tboyd47 wrote: post #38

One thing I like to reflect on when seeing this pictures is the vast difference in the number of people present at the hajj. It's truly orders of magnitude more. This huge increase in pilgrims over the last century is because of new technology like air travel, and the peace the world has experienced over the past few decades that allows people to move freely across the world. But it is due to the efforts of the Saudi…

Wait ... "Not connected to money"?! How is this different from building a movie theatre complex, or Disneyland? Why would we imagine its not all about profit at root? I'm not that generous.

Not going to compare to disneyland, but compared to many other religious places, for example, there is no way to donate money for the cause of Hajj anywhere in Mecca or Medina. The government does not ask for your money, nor does it encourage you to donate money at the mosques. Say what you want about the Saudis, Hajj is not seen from a pure profitability standpoint as far as I can see.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#55

Post by JoeAltmaier »

tboyd47 wrote: post #51
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait ... "Not connected to money"?! How is this different from building a movie theatre complex, or Disneyland? Why would we imagine its not all about profit at root? I'm not that generous.

Hajj visas are very restrictive. You aren't allowed to go anywhere except Mecca and Medina, and you're only allowed to stay for the length of hajj plus a few days extra for travel. And many of the people who go to hajj have spent their life's savings just to get there. So not a lot of foreign money is flowing, at least not compared to those other places.

Foreign == non-Muslim? Because somebody is staying in those hotels and its not locals, right?

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#56

Post by aws_ls »

rikacomet wrote: post #47
aws_ls wrote: post #39

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I know you are saying it in earnest, and good for you. But I dislike the preachy tone 'Hajj is a Farz for Muslims. Anyone who enter's Mecca ought to do so with the thought of his Lord on him'. When you do this, you ignore lots of non-practicing Muslims, who are cultural Muslims, and like to preserve the identity. So they may be interested to visit Mecca, not with your kind of zeal, but just out of exploratory interes…

Being a Muslim is to bow one's will to the Almighty. There is no such thing Wahabi/Hijji/Cultural Muslims. This is cleared in the Quran, that the religion chosen for us is Islam, not Islam Version A or Version B. A Muslim will enter it knowing its importance, and though he may not be perfect in conduct, he would ought to ask for forgiveness. Non-Muslims would naturally move about naturally, and end up doing things th…

>Being a Muslim is to bow one's will to the Almighty. There is no such thing Wahabi/Hijji/Cultural Muslims. This is cleared in the Quran, that the religion chosen for us is Islam, not Islam Version A or Version B.

Again, that's a black and white view of things, and violates the live and let live golden rule. Not just now, right after the death of the prophet Islam began to diverge. The Quran, itself was assembled into a book, after his death, during the 1st or 2nd caliphs time.

You should read up on Islamic history. The general populace has had several ebbs and highs in the nature and intensity of their belief, based on context and time.

Islamic history also has had a lot of free thinkers, even in medieval times like Al Ma'aari[1] and Ibn Rushd[2]. I also learnt, that there were liberal Muslims in 15th century Andulus-Spain, from a fascinating book by Tariq Ali[3].

I also read this recent article on 'free thinkers in Islam'[4]

Not sure if you know, the Turkish nobel prize winning author, Orhan Pamuk, also identifies himself as a cultural Muslim.

So you can't wish away the diversity and free thought. Currently we seem to be going through a phase of high tide in intensity of belief. You may be surprised to see it ebbing away in the coming decades. Just my view.

[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Al-Ma%CA%BFarri

[2] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Averroes

[3] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shadows_of_the_Pomegranate_Tre...

[4] http://www.independent.co.uk/voices/commentators/islamic-his...

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#57

Post by JoeAltmaier »

niyazpk wrote: post #54
JoeAltmaier wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wait ... "Not connected to money"?! How is this different from building a movie theatre complex, or Disneyland? Why would we imagine its not all about profit at root? I'm not that generous.

Not going to compare to disneyland, but compared to many other religious places, for example, there is no way to donate money for the cause of Hajj anywhere in Mecca or Medina. The government does not ask for your money, nor does it encourage you to donate money at the mosques. Say what you want about the Saudis, Hajj is not seen from a pure profitability standpoint as far as I can see.

Confused: who is staying in those hotels? They are free? The food is free? The travel? In one breath we hear how folks spend their life savings, and in the next that it is all a charity. Something isn't adding up.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#58

Post by codezero »

gnyman wrote: post #45

In case you don't see any pictures, unblock "Optimizely". At least with the standard ghostery install it did not load any pictures before I allowed Optimizely.

It's amazing how many people implement Optimizely in a way that breaks the site if you block it.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#59

Post by digi_owl »

bluedevil2k wrote: post #44
tdees40 wrote: post #11

Mecca seems like a pretty fascinating place. It's a terrible shame non-Muslims are banned.

These are legitimate questions - how do they know who is Muslim and who is not Muslim? Do they check before you get to the camps?

To be a bit facile: circumcision.

Re: Mecca Then and Now – 128 Years of Growth

#60

Post by drzaiusapelord »

tboyd47 wrote: post #38

One thing I like to reflect on when seeing this pictures is the vast difference in the number of people present at the hajj. It's truly orders of magnitude more. This huge increase in pilgrims over the last century is because of new technology like air travel, and the peace the world has experienced over the past few decades that allows people to move freely across the world. But it is due to the efforts of the Saudi…

> there is a spiritual purpose behind it, not connected to money,

Religion, especially in what's pretty much a theocracy-lite, is very much tied to power and money.

SA is swimming in oil money, so it doesn't need to perform some crass commercialization (although I'm sure the restaurant, transportation, and hotel industry benefit directly), but maintaining and consolidating power is part of this game. Humanity didn't start religion because we felt unusually generous. Its a way to gain power and resources by exploiting various human desires like the need for meaning, the need for afterlife beliefs, etc.

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