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In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

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Re: In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

#51

It seems to me that this credit score system--if real--would ultimately be self-defeating, for two reasons. First, among a cynical and rebellious youth population, a low score would become a prestigious thing, proof of your courage and gutsy attitude, a kind of street cred. Second, it would limit economic activity. If you cut off millions of people from car loans on the basis of their questionable postings or online…

Not sure what your understanding of China is, but I want to correct your assumption of (1).

Most Chinese youth arent rebellious in any substantial way. They've grown up in an environment that is strongly Confucian, and there isn't really this "be what you want to be, break free, live life, freedom of youth" narrative that we have in most of the developed world. Kids are very very unrebellious and I doubt there would grow a culture of 'showing off' your bad credit score.

On the 2nd point, I'm not sure either. The political element of this is likely to be a small factor, not a prime one. The government tends to be very specific these days about targeting people who are activists rather than cracking down on anyone who says anything. Finally, people in China are generally used to this kind of BS, and whether consciously or through 'brainwashing', they don't tend to randomly spout political positions or anti-government rhetoric unless they know they are on safe ground. I don't mean it won't be an oppressive, inefficient, opaque and abused system, just that it won't result in millions being locked out of loans or the economy suffering that much.

Re: In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

#52

"Such people will also be barred from serving in certain high-status and influential positions, like government official, reporter, CEO, statistician, and similar." For all practical purposes, I don't think this would be so different from what we already have in the West for people like CEOs, government officials, reporters etc. These people seem to be kicked out as soon as they do something politically incorrect. Th…

There is a huge difference between social pressure to quit for believing some humans are worth less than others, and the Government forcing you to quit because you made a minor comment on the stock exchange crash. Do you think that it would somehow be better if the beliefs of people with power were not questioned?

How about prisoners, foriengers and pedophiles? CEOs should lose their job for thinking those people are worth less too?

Re: In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

#53
post #46

Earlier quoted context omitted.

So they should be unaccountable?

People should be accountable for their actions, not for expressing an opinion .

No, people should be accountable for their opinions as well - you can't simply say that black people are stupid (in the John Derbyshire example) and expect that people won't get mad at you.

Re: In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

#54
post #50

I foresaw this happening when the Snowden leaks broke out, but I am still surprised to see it come so soon. With so much data in their hands, it's not hard to predict that they would want to boil it down to a simple numerical score. Google does it with Page Rank and it decides everything with regard to search engine visibility. If the gov. took a log of someone's search engine queries, social networking posts, travel…

> The counterpoint is that people could use this same system to rate their actions before they act. Imagine a plugin that would warn you before you post some opinion on social networks or add someone to your friend list that it would decrease your rating by 10 points(!) Then you could select which actions you want to do and avoid reducing your score. That would make the rating system meaningless.

No, it would make the system highly effective; control of discourse through the exercise of "soft power". No need to proactively censor if you train people to do it themselves.

This is the end result of the chilling effect mass surveillance has on human communications. And it's frightening.

Re: In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

#55
post #30

In France there's no such thing as the credit score. Of course banks probably (certainly) have something to rate their customers, but it's not public. And from what I can read about the credit score, I don't think we're missing much.

So, how do banks decide how much to loan you, if you want a loan, or at what interest rate? My history of being responsible with debt enables me to borrow large amounts of money while putting a small percentage down, and paying a small percentage interest (3.375%) on the principal. Banks can compete to offer better rates or terms on a loan like that (home mortgage, USA). Some notion of a credit score, or a person's g…

A numerical credit score is only one data point in a lending decision, albiet an important and useful summary one.

In mortgage lending they call this concept the "5 C's" of credit: character, capital, capacity, conditions and collateral. Character speaks to credit history. The credit scores are driven by "tradeline" payment history but lenders can independently verify that information- you disclose all your liabilities at application anyway, they can independently verify them, their history, and base an underwriting decison and price accordingly.

Credit scores are not necessary for competition in the loan market - lending has existed as long as commerce has. They do facilite faster lending descisons and reduce the processing and underwriting workload for lenders.

Historically (at least in America) banks absolutely have not been willing to lend to all comers who could repay and credit scores have probably served to equalize access to credit for more people in a way that wouldn't have happened without them, but they aren't strictly necessary to make or get a loan or even have a market for them. It's just more work for the lenders.

Re: In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

#56
post #50

I foresaw this happening when the Snowden leaks broke out, but I am still surprised to see it come so soon. With so much data in their hands, it's not hard to predict that they would want to boil it down to a simple numerical score. Google does it with Page Rank and it decides everything with regard to search engine visibility. If the gov. took a log of someone's search engine queries, social networking posts, travel…

Indeed. Imagine the big data Joe McCarthy.

Re: In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

#57

It seems to me that this credit score system--if real--would ultimately be self-defeating, for two reasons. First, among a cynical and rebellious youth population, a low score would become a prestigious thing, proof of your courage and gutsy attitude, a kind of street cred. Second, it would limit economic activity. If you cut off millions of people from car loans on the basis of their questionable postings or online…

Not sure what your understanding of China is, but I want to correct your assumption of (1). Most Chinese youth arent rebellious in any substantial way. They've grown up in an environment that is strongly Confucian, and there isn't really this "be what you want to be, break free, live life, freedom of youth" narrative that we have in most of the developed world. Kids are very very unrebellious and I doubt there would…

I am in agreement. Rule of law is a predictable stat that creditors like to evaluate risk. Thing is, China's application of law can be very political. So while creditors can't predict that the legal system will work as expected like in America or Western Europe, they can predict that even economically successful political dissidents are at a measurable risk to losing everything very quickly.

Re: In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

#58
post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eww ewww ewww! I never realized it was this bad. You have a funny idea of "worked". This seems like pure evil oppression. Long live freedom of speech. That being said we have a similar thing in the west, like clearance that you need for some government jobs(checks your connections to enemy states, drug use, general untrustworthy behavior). Fortunately, such government jobs isn't too big part of the economy. Ideally w…

Here, instead of permanent records, we just have credit reports and Facebook to preserve everything we ever did for all time.

No, we're talking about something vastly more invasive. Beyond a certain extreme, they become very different things.

Re: In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

#59
post #37

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Eww ewww ewww! I never realized it was this bad. You have a funny idea of "worked". This seems like pure evil oppression. Long live freedom of speech. That being said we have a similar thing in the west, like clearance that you need for some government jobs(checks your connections to enemy states, drug use, general untrustworthy behavior). Fortunately, such government jobs isn't too big part of the economy. Ideally w…

But go talk to some people who've only ever experienced these types of business cultures, and they'll start listing for you a ton of reasons why it would be IMPOSSIBLE for the business world to operate as well or better, if it were any other way. These slavery books are still pretty common in parts of Europe too.

Where in Europe?

Re: In China, Your Credit Score Is Affected by Your Political Opinions

#60

Does anyone know why pia is blocked in the UK ? Page is not opening.

It's always worked for me, on all the big five. I've just tested it now (having disconnected from my PIA VPN) and it worked fine.

The VPN works too (obviously). I do sometimes find that switching to TCP (which should make it slower due to overhead) makes it faster, but it's ISP dependent, which implies the OpenVPN UDP traffic is being throttled.

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