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Google and Microsoft make patent peace

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Re: Google and Microsoft make patent peace

#51

Post by jupiter2 »

tdylan wrote: post #24
proksoup wrote: post #2

"What we do know is that Microsoft makes approximately $3.4-billion a year from its Android patent licening deals. " [sic] I guess this might be good news for Google? From my perspective, patents are a toxic drain on morale/intelligence/innovation that we have no hope of curtailing in my lifetime.

Patents seem to have a net negative effect, blatantly anti-competitive.

This is another issue that irks me to no end. Companies like Microsoft and Apple reaped the benefits, early on, of little to no software patent protection laws. They copied and outright pilfered everything out there - and it was ok... Those early years saw tremendous competition.

It's hard to explain how exciting technology was back then - so many options. I remember learning about and trying to decide between DOS, Amiga, Commodore, Apple IIs/Mac, Atari. These were the OSes/PCs I focused on (not including Unix). Yet, this was nothing compared to the (healthy) competition among app developers. Very innovative times.

Nowadays, if you have even a smidgeon of success - you're either bought out by those who successfully gamed the system or sued into submission.

Re: Google and Microsoft make patent peace

#53

Post by DanBC »

jupiter2 wrote: post #51
tdylan wrote: post #24

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Patents seem to have a net negative effect, blatantly anti-competitive.

This is another issue that irks me to no end. Companies like Microsoft and Apple reaped the benefits, early on, of little to no software patent protection laws. They copied and outright pilfered everything out there - and it was ok... Those early years saw tremendous competition. It's hard to explain how exciting technology was back then - so many options. I remember learning about and trying to decide between DOS, A…

> Companies like Microsoft and Apple reaped the benefits, early on, of little to no software patent protection laws. They copied and outright pilfered everything out there - and it was ok

Law suits over look and feel have been happening since the 1980s, well before MS or Apple got big.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Broderbund_Software_Inc._v._Un....

Lotus started look and feel lawsuits in 1987: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lotus_Software#.22Look_and_fee...

Apple tried to sue MS over look and feel in 1994: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple_Computer,_Inc._v._Micros....

They've always aggressively used law.

Re: Google and Microsoft make patent peace

#54

Post by throwawaykf05 »

nemothekid wrote: post #45
throwawaykf05 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mea culpa, my memory is bad, so let's lay out the timeline: Early Oct 2010: Microsoft files lawsuit. Late Oct 2010: Motorola countersues. Aug 2011: Google announces Motorola acquisition. (Many would say Google's watch starts now.) May 2012: Google closes Motorola acquisition. Sept 2013: Microsoft wins 14M judgement with jury deciding unanimously that Google was a bad actor. Regardless of where you start the stopwatch…

> And note again, Google was the only company involved in the smartphone wars to suffer this fate. Given its previous rhetoric about "patent abuse", this is nothing but hypocrisy. Prevent what outcome. You aren't being clear on how Google abused patents. What patents did specifically Google abuse? If my reading comprehension serves me right, Google didn't sue anyone over the use of any patents - Motorola and Microsof…

> Prevent what outcome.

From the link I pasted: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/07/appeals-court-uph...

"The US Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit has upheld (PDF) a 2013 jury verdict finding that Motorola must pay Microsoft $14.5 million for violating its commitments to license certain standard-essential patents on a "fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory" (FRAND) basis."

>Motorola and Microsoft did.

As the timeline I posted shows, Google owned Motorola for a significant portion of the duration of the lawsuit, most importantly the part where they got penalized.

> If your argument is that after the the acquisition, Google should have went behind the backs of Moto's lawyers who had been working 8 months on this case and done something...

Uh, yes? If you're putting out a bunch of PR about how other companies are using patents to "attack" Android, you should not end up the only company penalized for actually abusing patents. You can't say, "Oh, it's a company we fully own, but we can't really control their lawyers and waste their efforts." You know who else plays the "shell company" game, right?

Re: Google and Microsoft make patent peace

#55

Post by throwawaykf05 »

WildUtah wrote: post #46
icebraining wrote: post #43

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's not up to the USPTO to decide what is patentable. The courts have repeatedly reaffirmed the legal validity of software patents, so the Patent Office would probably get sued itself if it discriminated against software inventions.

The USPTO isn't required to follow court rulings. The MPEP (Manual of Patent Examining Procedure) isn't even updated to reflect what the courts say unless the PTO likes it. If you don't like what PTO says, you can always just go to your local federal courthouse to sue for your patent. And the PTO gets sued all the time. The courts are split on the idea of software patenting because the Supreme Court doesn't understan…

> The USPTO isn't required to follow court rulings.

While technically true, it does not match reality. The PTO does update its processes to reflect recent cases:

http://patentlyo.com/jobs/2009/03/ptos-current-examination-s...

http://patentlyo.com/patent/2014/06/issues-examination-instr...

> The CAFC -- the patent appeals court -- is relentless in overturning Supreme Court precedents against software patents.

If this appears to be the case, it's mostly because as you said, the Supreme Court does not understand software, and has consistently made everybody's lives harder by issuing vague, non-concrete opinions about patent eligibility and validity, overturning well-established procedures. The SC's current stand is "we know an invalid patent when we see one and will make up arbitrary reasons to invalidate it", but that does not help the PTO or the lower courts clear guidelines that they can implement.

Also, it is not true that the CAFC overturns Supreme Court precedents, as can be seen in the spate of decisions following Alice: http://www.law360.com/articles/662776/a-look-at-everything-t...

Re: Google and Microsoft make patent peace

#56

Post by throwawaykf05 »

nemothekid wrote: post #8
throwawaykf05 wrote: post #5

TFA (perhaps unsurprisingly) does not mention this particular Microsoft-Google case: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/07/appeals-court-uph... Of all the patent lawsuits that happened in all the smartphone wars that nobody won, this was the only case where a company was actually sanctioned for, essentially, abusing patents. And this happened on Google's watch. For all the rhetoric Google spewed about how their…

Did you link the right article - the referenced article references a court case between Motorola and Microsoft - one that started before Google's acquisition of Moto. It seems the patent battle was Microsoft abuse of its own patents to take a percentage of all Android sales (and Moto's revenue). Edit: Motorola vs Microsoft, not Google

People may like to portray Microsoft's use of patents as "abuse", but the fact stands that they have successfully licensed their portfolio to most Android manufacturers with a minimum of lawsuits and, more importantly, without being legally penalized like Google/Motorola were.

Re: Google and Microsoft make patent peace

#57

Post by throwawaykf05 »

Oletros wrote: post #44
throwawaykf05 wrote: post #40

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mea culpa, my memory is bad, so let's lay out the timeline: Early Oct 2010: Microsoft files lawsuit. Late Oct 2010: Motorola countersues. Aug 2011: Google announces Motorola acquisition. (Many would say Google's watch starts now.) May 2012: Google closes Motorola acquisition. Sept 2013: Microsoft wins 14M judgement with jury deciding unanimously that Google was a bad actor. Regardless of where you start the stopwatch…

yap, Google is evil, got it

Not quite evil, just a hypocrite.

Re: Google and Microsoft make patent peace

#58

Post by nemothekid »

throwawaykf05 wrote: post #54
nemothekid wrote: post #45

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> And note again, Google was the only company involved in the smartphone wars to suffer this fate. Given its previous rhetoric about "patent abuse", this is nothing but hypocrisy. Prevent what outcome. You aren't being clear on how Google abused patents. What patents did specifically Google abuse? If my reading comprehension serves me right, Google didn't sue anyone over the use of any patents - Motorola and Microsof…

> Prevent what outcome. From the link I pasted: http://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2015/07/appeals-court-uph... "The US Court of Appeals for the 9th Circuit has upheld (PDF) a 2013 jury verdict finding that Motorola must pay Microsoft $14.5 million for violating its commitments to license certain standard-essential patents on a "fair, reasonable and non-discriminatory" (FRAND) basis." >Motorola and Microsoft did. As…

I still don't know how you are linking Google.

1.) FTA, Google didn't abuse any patents - Microsoft used its patents to attack Android. Sure Google lost, but your claim that Google abused patents isn't backed up here, Microsoft was the aggressor and Google lost. Google has every right to believe that other companies are using patents to attack Android - thats exactly what MS did here. Show me a case where Google actively sought out to use their patents to sue someone else and then you have a point.

FWIW, the case in question isn't new, everyone else decided to play ball and pay MS 1% of all revenue except Motorola, which leads to...

2.) The litigation covers a period of time independent of Google. Are you seriously implying Google is the bad actor here when the litigation is over something that happened BEFORE Google acquired moto? Or are you trying to imply every Android manufacturer (Samsung, LG, HTC) are all just shell companies for Google (even though all the other "shell" companies decided to play ball with MS)?

3.) >you should not end up the only company penalized for actually abusing patents.

I guess we are just going to close our eyes and ears over Apple's 1B injunction against samsung over rounded corners?

Re: Google and Microsoft make patent peace

#59

Post by tracker1 »

throwawaykf05 wrote: post #38
tracker1 wrote: post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The problem is that in certain segments, most specifically in terms of software development... the "valuable technology" can generally be implemented by anyone skilled in the crafy, and generally speaking doesn't have a lot of outlay in terms of research/development. That's not to say there aren't segments of software development that should qualify, but imho if allowed should really be more like 5 years, not 20 for…

Sure, most things in software can be implemented by anyone skilled in the craft, but how many can invent it? And furthermore, when speaking of "skilled in the art", let's keep in mind the perennial HN threads about hiring and how 99% of developers can't do FizzBuzz.

I'm pretty sure a significant portion of software developers working a decade ago could "invent" one click ordering, podcasts, or double-tap actions.
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