It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo • Hacker News Board

Re: It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo

#51

Post by fapjacks » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 9:09 AM UTC

tluyben2 wrote: post #43

Doesn't surprise me that they are owned by Paypal; I know many who have been scammed on Paypal and they have the same kind of nice and friendly policy; 'we don't care, kthnxbye'. I understand they cannot be in business if they wouldn't work like that, however why do they need to be bastards about it? Even if they cannot do anything to help you, they could be sorry for you or at least show some kind of humanity. Also…

These days I consider PayPal to be about as scummy as Western Union. If I can help it, I don't touch them with a ten foot pole.

Re: It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo

#52

Post by confluence » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 10:15 AM UTC

mintplant wrote: post #10

> Finally on Jan. 22, from Eran Kimchi, Venmo’s head of fraud, whom Movassaghi emailed directly in a final attempt to recover his money and alert the company to what he saw as a dangerous and pervasive scam: “Venmo has a complete understanding of the scam plot you fell victim to … there is nothing Venmo can do to comfort you. … You made an innocent mistake, and you paid for it.” That's certainly one way of dealing wi…

That's the politest fuck you I've seen today.

Re: It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo

#53

Post by BowBun » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 1:55 PM UTC

I'm seeing a lot of Venmo bashing here, but I think it's a great service and these people just used it wrong. Even with a 'merchant transaction', all you had to do was click 'Withdraw' so that the money was on the way to your bank account before sending the buyer whatever they got. I thought it was already pretty clear that a Venmo balance isn't real money yet, it's just Venmo showing you your potential balance if you want to withdraw.

I can see how they should make it more clear, but the people who got scammed were also not very well informed.

Re: It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo

#54

Post by astazangasta » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 2:26 PM UTC

BowBun wrote: post #53

I'm seeing a lot of Venmo bashing here, but I think it's a great service and these people just used it wrong. Even with a 'merchant transaction', all you had to do was click 'Withdraw' so that the money was on the way to your bank account before sending the buyer whatever they got. I thought it was already pretty clear that a Venmo balance isn't real money yet, it's just Venmo showing you your potential balance if yo…

The first guy did exactly this, got confirmation, and had the money reversed out of his account.

Re: It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo

#55

Post by RickS » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 3:10 PM UTC

mintplant wrote: post #10

> Finally on Jan. 22, from Eran Kimchi, Venmo’s head of fraud, whom Movassaghi emailed directly in a final attempt to recover his money and alert the company to what he saw as a dangerous and pervasive scam: “Venmo has a complete understanding of the scam plot you fell victim to … there is nothing Venmo can do to comfort you. … You made an innocent mistake, and you paid for it.” That's certainly one way of dealing wi…

The ellipses scattered through that quote hint that it's been sliced together from a larger statement to make the guy look more tone deaf.

Re: It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo

#56

Post by yason » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:07 PM UTC

klipt wrote: post #23

yason wrote: post #15

If I understood correctly, the whole damn scam is only possible because this Venmo's terms of service prohibit something called "merchant transactions" and allow for reversing or cancelling transfers if they deem or someone reports a payment to fall in "merchant" category? If so, then the problem is only a completely artificial one and made of mere policy decisions. Venmo could just act as a blind intermediary, no qu…

> I assume that it goes in a relatively similar way in the USA. Hahaha no. Banks here charge $30 to send money instantly via "wire". ACH is cheaper but takes days to clear.

The latency could be what it is but to clarify the core of my assumption is that:

1) sending money to anyone or receiving money from anyone happens mechanically (nobody will step in and say sending $200 to your friend will be cancelled because it looks like a merchant transfer); and

2) when banks do clear the transfer it is cleared for real, and if you see the money on your account it's yours for real by that time.

This would be in opposition to what Venmo does, i.e. lies to you that you've received the money and you haven't. Or can it happen in US accounts that you see a fresh deposit on your account but the next day it won't be there anymore?

Re: It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo

#57

Post by yason » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 5:14 PM UTC

reality_czech wrote: post #48

yason wrote: post #15

If I understood correctly, the whole damn scam is only possible because this Venmo's terms of service prohibit something called "merchant transactions" and allow for reversing or cancelling transfers if they deem or someone reports a payment to fall in "merchant" category? If so, then the problem is only a completely artificial one and made of mere policy decisions. Venmo could just act as a blind intermediary, no qu…

Banks don't work the way you think, at least in the US. ACH transfers are slow (take a few days to complete), and often expensive. Up until 5 days later, they can be reversed even after both banks agree that they've happend if the sender decides that the payment was "erroneous." The government can and does impose "some vague policy" on what you can and can't do with your money. If they decide that you have been "stru…

Oh and by the way people can just take money from your account via ACH transfer if they have the correct numbers.

Is the ACH an internal network between banks or something that regular people could use, either directly online or by dropping wiring orders to some box in the bank? If the latter, it sounds so crazy I almost don't believe it. Where is ACH used and who actually uses it if it implies that your money could be just taken away by someone who knows your account number (and hopefully some other information that you wouldn't normally share anywhere) ?

Re: It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo

#58

Post by FireBeyond » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 6:35 PM UTC

repomies691 wrote: post #44

josegonzalez wrote: post #26

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, not really. The scammer can use a stolen Amex card to send payments. When the card is reported stolen and charges reversed, that goes all the way back to the user's bank account. Would be silly of Venmo to do otherwise, as that would be an easy way for them to go out of business.

But why would the bank reverse the transaction? From venmo viewpoint it is quite clear why they would want to reverse it, because they have changed the credit to actual funds. However the bank probably would want to protect their customer, and instead let venmo to take the hit.

The bank would reverse it because it's unauthorized to their customer. Put the onus on the merchant.

Re: It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo

#59

Post by FireBeyond » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 7:06 PM UTC

pbreit wrote: post #17

I didnt have the patience to read to the end but it seemed poorly written. How does the scam work exactly? Is it a technical loophole or something to do with the quoted policy?

A bit of both. There were two issues at play:

1 - anything other than 'money to friends', and Venom says "that's a business/commercial transaction" and reserves the right to cancel/freeze/reverse or otherwise not support it.

2 - as it happens, sure enough, beyond that, the transaction was reversed when the other sides bank NSF'ed the transfers.

Re: It’s Easy to Get Scammed on Venmo

#60

Post by mukyu » Thu, Sep 17, 2015, 7:12 PM UTC

yason wrote: post #57

reality_czech wrote: post #48

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Banks don't work the way you think, at least in the US. ACH transfers are slow (take a few days to complete), and often expensive. Up until 5 days later, they can be reversed even after both banks agree that they've happend if the sender decides that the payment was "erroneous." The government can and does impose "some vague policy" on what you can and can't do with your money. If they decide that you have been "stru…

Oh and by the way people can just take money from your account via ACH transfer if they have the correct numbers. Is the ACH an internal network between banks or something that regular people could use, either directly online or by dropping wiring orders to some box in the bank? If the latter, it sounds so crazy I almost don't believe it. Where is ACH used and who actually uses it if it implies that your money could…

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