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Quantum weirdness is everywhere in life

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Re: Quantum weirdness is everywhere in life

#51

Post by teraflop »

deepnet wrote: post #38
ewzimm wrote: post #30

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author is a molecular biologist with several published books and over 100 peer-reviewed articles, so he definitely has a grasp on basic biology. I think that what you are missing is the assertion that each atom plays an individual role in the process. That is, there are low-level processes that take place on a small enough scale to depend on quantum effects that make direct contributions to DNA. The point is that…

The author's 1999 paper proposes a quantum mechanic to explain adaptive mutation. They assert that E. Coli mutates to develop lactase in a lactose enviroment, it does this quickly and seemingly without adverse mutations - randomness fails to explain this. McFadden and Khalili propose that adaptive DNA mutation is a quantum computation. The many possible mutations are explored simultaneously and the quantum state coll…

I'm very skeptical about this as an actual phenomenon, but it's been used as the premise of a fairly interesting SF novel: http://gregegan.customer.netspace.net.au/TERANESIA/TERANESIA...

Re: Quantum weirdness is everywhere in life

#52

Post by kordless »

titzer wrote: post #43
deepnet wrote: post #38

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The author's 1999 paper proposes a quantum mechanic to explain adaptive mutation. They assert that E. Coli mutates to develop lactase in a lactose enviroment, it does this quickly and seemingly without adverse mutations - randomness fails to explain this. McFadden and Khalili propose that adaptive DNA mutation is a quantum computation. The many possible mutations are explored simultaneously and the quantum state coll…

Reading their abstract makes me cringe. "The principle that mutations occur randomly with respect to the direction of evolutionary change has been challenged by the phenomenon of adaptive mutations. There is currently no entirely satisfactory theory to account for how a cell can selectively mutate certain genes in response to environmental signals. However, spontaneous mutations are initiated by quantum events such a…

You say it makes you 'cringe', yet you offer no substantial argument to why you are fearful of their hypothesis. Saying things like "BS" and "WTF" is a weak attempt at hacking biases, and usually attributed to dissonance. I don't accept biased arguments as truths. Quite the contrary, I see them as indicators of an unresolved argument.

I'm not afraid of their hypothesis and I welcome the truth, however weird it may be.

Re: Quantum weirdness is everywhere in life

#55

Post by deepnet »

dekhn wrote: post #47

to me, the strongest argument for quantum weirdness (which isn't actually that weird once you appreicate that quantum laws don't actually allow you to break causality) in biology is photosynthesis. There is some pretty strong evidence- not completely agreed upon but still pretty strong- that coherence plays a role.

Quantum coherence in biological energy transfer, Scholes - U Toronto

http://www.chem.utoronto.ca/staff/SCHOLES/scholes_home.html

Re: Quantum weirdness is everywhere in life

#56

Post by dekhn »

deepnet wrote: post #55
dekhn wrote: post #47

to me, the strongest argument for quantum weirdness (which isn't actually that weird once you appreicate that quantum laws don't actually allow you to break causality) in biology is photosynthesis. There is some pretty strong evidence- not completely agreed upon but still pretty strong- that coherence plays a role.

Quantum coherence in biological energy transfer, Scholes - U Toronto http://www.chem.utoronto.ca/staff/SCHOLES/scholes_home.html

I was gonna cite this work from their experimental collaborator: http://www.nature.com/nature/journal/v446/n7137/full/nature0...

It's one of the most exquisite bits of biophysics I've ever seen.

Re: Quantum weirdness is everywhere in life

#57

Post by dvanduzer »

feelix wrote: post #28
titzer wrote: post #4

"The colour of your eyes, the shape of your nose, your intelligence or propensity for disease are encoded at the quantum level." Uh, nope.

It is Schroedinger who said that, who, considering his time in history, had a very broad view of what quantum mechanics and DNA are. Given his high level viewpoint he was correct, considering that he was making a reference to interactions at the level of the universe. Although it is actually your DNA which codes the colour of your eyes, it is also true that quantum mechanics plays a part in the DNA encoding itself, w…

That's the exact phrase that I found so suspect. That makes it sound like the distinction between nucleotides is atomic, rather than molecular.

Is that true / nuanced in some particular way I don't know about?

Re: Quantum weirdness is everywhere in life

#58

Post by coverup »

rogerbraun wrote: post #17

It's always a shame when the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is presented as how reality works. Most of the perceived weirdness of QM comes from the leaps of faith required to make the Copenhagen interpretation work.

It's a shame when physics is presented as how reality works!

Rather than what it is: our best model.

Re: Quantum weirdness is everywhere in life

#59

Post by AnimalMuppet »

kordless wrote: post #48
sorokod wrote: post #26

There is also the quantum mind https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quantum_mind

Those that disagree with the quantum mind argument happen to be firm believers in the downvote button. :)

It's not so much a matter of disagreeing. It's that the quantum mind is off-topic. Bringing it up here looks like an attempt to publicize the idea by riding on the coat-tails of a completely unrelated article. That's worthy of downvotes, whatever one thinks of the idea itself.

Re: Quantum weirdness is everywhere in life

#60

Post by AnimalMuppet »

coverup wrote: post #58
rogerbraun wrote: post #17

It's always a shame when the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics is presented as how reality works. Most of the perceived weirdness of QM comes from the leaps of faith required to make the Copenhagen interpretation work.

It's a shame when physics is presented as how reality works! Rather than what it is: our best model.

Physics is our best model? OK, I buy that.

The Copenhagen interpretation? Not so much. It's an interpretation. The actual physics is in the equations. I can believe the equations without believing the Copenhagen interpretation, or any interpretation.

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