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Gitmo Is Killing Me

nytimes.com

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Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#491

Post by gfodor »

rayiner wrote: post #318
jussij wrote: post #60

So much for the Declaration of Independence: We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

The declaration of independence is a document with zero legal force. It's a bunch of nice sounding words to justify our attempt to separate from the British, nothing more.

It may not be a legal document but it certainly more than just a "bunch of nice sounding words." I hear this argument get trotted out all the time as if the only way to value a document and how it should inform policy is if it is a legal one.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#492

Post by varjag » 

    In 1971, while in Lefortovo prison in Moscow (the central KGB
    interrogation jail), I went on a hunger strike
    demanding a defense lawyer of my choice
    (the KGB wanted its trusted lawyer to be assigned instead).
    The moment was most inconvenient for my captors because my case was due in court,
    and they had no time to spare. So, to break me down, they 
    started force-feeding me in a very unusual manner -- through my nostrils.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/12...

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#493

Post by yardie »

madebylaw wrote: post #403
yardie wrote: post #207

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I'm not sure what kind of court he would be 'tried' in considering he's not a US citizen. I wasn't aware that to be tried in court citizenship is a requirement.

You're right, I don't think citizenship is a requirement. I guess this was my vague way of saying that these prisoners are in a legal gray area as to what court they would be tried in, what their legal rights are, and what would constitute a 'fair trial'. This seems to be actively debated in the upper echelons of US law and politics: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Guantanamo_Bay_detention_camp#L...

> You're right, I don't think citizenship is a requirement.

Please, download the iConstitution app and spend 10-15 minutes reading it.

> these prisoners are in a legal gray area

No, the prisoners and their lawyers know where they stand. The US DOJ is trying to figure out the grey are they are. The guilty ones have been tried and sentences. These others may be of questionable character but not enough to be guilty. Now the US government is filing appeal after appeal to keep the lawyers busy because in the end the US will be deeply embarrassed by this whole affair.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#494

Post by fakeer »

berntb wrote: post #380
fakeer wrote: post #188

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, I really don't know any better way but this way that you are supposedly telling others to accept as 'al right' is not a a way at all. It's not even democracy. And if you keep doing[1] this - detaining innocents and keeping them in the vacuum for years without a trial and without letting them know what is their crime, if tall; and killing hundreds of children in one drone strike(even though your country's Sec.OS w…

>>killing hundreds of children in one drone strike Hundreds of children? Why? When? How -- where they put in a pile?! >>you are no longer in a position to drone the shit out of entire villages of children and women at your whims(very soon) The point with drone strikes is that they are targeted, not like artillery which do wipe out villages, etc. I stopped reading. Please increase your trolling quality.

>>where they put in a pile?

Did you mean were? No, they were not. A drone strike is not a shot on a dart board by a marksman so they don't need to.

>>hundreds in one strike>>

My mistake. I was angry and I just mentioned it in flow - I originally wanted to portray remote strikes in general. But drone strike are not sniper shots either! Can I humbly ask you to go here[1] and you might be enlightened http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Drone_attacks_in_Pakistan

>>I stopped reading.

I believe that you've stopped reading - literally, especially after reading your last sentence.

[1]http://drones.pitchinteractive.com/

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#495

Post by Nursie »

te_chris wrote: post #455
Nursie wrote: post #174

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't know of another country that has it quite so bad. I know of nowhere else in the western world where people fly flags or drape themselves in the flag with anything like the regularity of the US. It really sticks out compared to everywhere else I've been, and I've travelled to/in 30+ countries now.

Australia, believe it or not, is actually pretty bad in this regard. The amount of xenophobia disguised as "patriotism" is pretty eye opening (well at least for me). I haven't travelled through the USA though, but Australia definitely was a shock.

I know Aus has more than a few issues surrounding xenophobia and race but... I lived in Perth for two years and spent six months on the road around the country. Despite the fashion for Southern Cross tattoos, it comes nowhere close to the US for sheer number of flags. I never noticed flag poles and flags in people's front gardens (for example) like I saw in Texas.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#496

Post by moconnor »

davepage wrote: post #132

Subject's DoD dossier: http://projects.nytimes.com/guantanamo/detainees/43-samir-na...

This is a fascinating insight into what the DoD thinks the story is, and a frightening example of why fair trial and due process should be required to incarcerate people.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#497

Post by ed_blackburn »

What concerns me is that as I understand it, my own country (UK) has been complicit with these detentions. I'm also concerned that the UK and other developed nations have similar black-ops illegal detention centres too, Guantanamo is public knowledge. Are there other centres?

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#498

Post by tomohawk »

Legally, these guys are non-lawful enemy combatants. They have put themselves in a legal grey area, not by committing crimes, but by committing acts of war. Many, if not all of them have been trained, if captured, to try to disrupt the legal system by any means necessary. They are fighting a war.

Here is what happened to some German non-lawful combatants during WWII: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Pastorius

About 1/3 of detainees released have gone right back to the fighting: http://www.longwarjournal.org/archives/2012/03/latest_gitmo_...

And these were the low risk ones.

According to the US Constitution, it is Congress that establishes courts (except the supreme court) and decides what their purpose is. The President does not get to decide this. Military commissions have been accordingly established by Congress to try the detainees. The current President halted this process. Thus the detainees are in legal limbo until either Congress establishes a different court to hear the cases or the President decides to comply with the current law.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#499

Post by onli »

smalltalk wrote: post #482
onli wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Honestly, no. Every country has people in it believing that, and songs accordingly. It is called nationalism, which is more common in some countries then others. If you would say those thinks over here, people would suspect you being a nazi. This "America is the greatest country on earth"-slogan is pretty specific for the USA. It is so typical that it became a klischee, we call it "american pathos". It is the same ca…

What is a "klischee"? Wherever you were educated can't have been much better than the US, which has the worst education system in the world (according to you). I'm sure the US also has the worst poverty in the world, the worst prison system in the world, the most killing and abduction of foreign civilians in the world, the most torture of its prisoners, but could you back that up with some sources or some rational th…

Sadly i can't downvote yet. So i will write that as text: No, as you merged two ad hominem attacks into your comment, I won't discuss anything with you.

Re: Gitmo Is Killing Me

#500

Post by erre »

rayiner wrote: post #316
skyraider wrote: post #5

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I hope that the defenders of the legal theories that allow people to be held without trial for many years get their fair share of the blame. Gitmo itself is bad, but the legal theories that let almost anyone be held there without due process are worse. I understand that it looks bad if people released from custody in Gitmo return to action in 'violent non-state actor' groups. But is looking bad in the media worth hum…

What do you mean "almost everyone?" The only people in Guantanamo are foreigners. The Supreme Court struck down the other "theories" in a series of cases starting with Hamdi v. Rumsfeld: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hamdi_v._Rumsfeld .

Well, Wikipedia estimates the world population at ~7 billion people, and the US population at 315 million. So, "almost everyone" in the world is not an American citizen.
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