SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas • Hacker News Board

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#491

Post by KuraFire » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 9:26 PM UTC

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next?

Think of the backlash against her that happened. Think what she and other women might feel being in a room full of Hacker News & Reddit tech guys, _some_ of whom having made threats.

"I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as $UsernameWhoWasThreateningAdria. What if I do something that upsets him? Is he going to rape or kill me next?"

Your legitimate concern over getting reprimanded is not on the same scale at all to the concerns others might have because of the culture being perpetuated here.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#492

Post by largesse » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 9:26 PM UTC

raganwald wrote: post #219

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? People say the same things all the time in companies where women complain about inappropriate sexuality. "What if I say something that offends her?" Most of us are good, inoffensive people. We are saddled with growing up in a world that is changing. It used to be accept…

We all deal with the fact that we're in the middle of change, and it isn't always comfortable. Just as it wasn't comfortable for people dealing with the acceptance of homosexuals: I think everyone accepts that the word "faggot" is no longer appropriate.

Nope. That is not it. Men and women joke together freely with innuendo throughout society and most of the time it is not considered a problem. She did that exact thing on Twitter. To somehow say that a physical conference space is sacrosanct in a way that Twitter is not is ridiculous.

I think that if you look carefully, what you see is that what we term political correctness today is in actuality a new label on the old idea of chivalry. It aims toward a norm of social behavior where women are seen to require special protection in a way that men are assumed not to. They can toss away that protection and engage in banter, but men can not. This has been the norm in polite society for at least 500 years. Today, it just has different ideological window dressing.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#493

Post by knowtheory » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 9:28 PM UTC

ryguytilidie wrote: post #469

knowtheory wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

zevyoura was asserting that the behavior seen on twitter is not representative of our community, and that those sentiments are isolated to a set of bad actors. My assertion is that there is a substantial number of people who share that same ill will here on hacker news. Most of the threads that have been posted to HN have been dog piles of hating on Adria Richards. So the question is are those people new and in fact…

You seem to have a super inconsistent burden of proof. -Poster above who says hacker news posters are typically sexist. No problem whatsoever, no burden of proof needed. -Person responds and says they disagree that this represents HN posts. You respond and demand that they produce quantifiable proof. -You then go on to assert that hacker news posters are like this, based on 0 quantifiable evidence, but just your hunc…

Er?

No? I said if he wanted to quantify his claim, he could do so, and recommended a course of action. He said he didn't have the time/effort to do so.

All i was asserting was that my hunch was contrary to his. That's the perfect place for an experiment. Given that we don't have any evidence in front of us, we just have his hunch and my hunch. I'm not asserting anything beyond that.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#494

Post by alxp » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 9:30 PM UTC

Tichy wrote: post #353

raganwald wrote: post #219

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would feel really uncomfortable if I was in the same room as this person. What if I accidentally say something that she finds offensive? Am I next? People say the same things all the time in companies where women complain about inappropriate sexuality. "What if I say something that offends her?" Most of us are good, inoffensive people. We are saddled with growing up in a world that is changing. It used to be accept…

You assume that taking offense is always reasonable, or whoever feels offended is always right. Also, playing the emotion card (it hurts my feelings/sensibilities) is a way to excert power and control.

> It isn't always reasonable, being called out for shitty behaviour is step one, step two is either you apologize because you realize you were in the wrong, or you have a discussion and hopefully both parties understand each other better at the end.

The idea that women have a hot branding iron with them where ever they go that they can use to permanently stamp the word 'sexist' onto whomever they like at the slightest offense is utterly silly - doubly so when it reverses the actual power dynamic that women deal with when in a room full of men.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#495

Post by tatsuke95 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 9:32 PM UTC

ericabiz wrote: post #217

blhack wrote: post #20

I really wish that this whole thing could have ended amicably (perhaps with Adria apologizing to the devs [by the way, the guy who was fired has already publicly apologized]). It's too bad that sendgrid had to fire her, I would never wish that somebody had their livlihood taken from them like that, but her job was to be a developer evangelist, which is a job she isn't realistically capable of performing anymore. I wo…

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

>"This went on like this for several minutes. Dude never said a single word to me, and finally wandered off, confused."

You consider this "borderline sexism"? Interesting. As is your use of the word "dude" to describe the guy. Does that mean you don't mind when people refer to you as a "chick"?

>"and then stared at me, the only woman nearby, to gauge my reaction...[r]ight now it's been a week and I'm still working out the best course of action."

How about not associating with the person anymore? Done. He made a joke you didn't like, about a person you don't even know, and might possibly be an asshole. There are lots of those out there. Move on; you'll be a better person for it.

>"and in her case, multiple times a day"

Sorry, but I'm skeptical.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#496

Post by smsm42 » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 9:32 PM UTC

JohnBooty wrote: post #395

rdtsc wrote: post #317

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech Thank you for speaking up. I imagine this is not the easiest time to do so. > This doesn't portray women as badly as it portrays our entire tech culture badly. With such a large audience there will always be extreme responses on either side. There will (and have been) DDoS attacks, personal phone calls etc. I don't think those represent the community as much as it rep…

> She claims jokes were offending, she then posts > racists and penis jokes on her twitter account. > Not only does it smell of hypocrisy it smells of > maliciousness. Wow, so if your mother (or sister, or girlfriend, or wife, or daughter) has ever made an off-color joke in her life, that gives any man in the world the right to discuss penises with her in person? I mean, wow. That's what you're getting at. Twitter ha…

Everybody has the right to discuss penises, or anything they like, provided participants in discussion willing to do it. If they do not, the preceding history does not matter.

However, in this case as far as I understand (please correct if I'm wrong) the person took offense not for something that was directed at her, but by something that is merely said in her presence, without her being the intended recipient or part of the discussion. Of course, it could still be unpleasant, but for one to expect they'd never overhear anything that they would not discuss personally would be an unwarranted imposition on others. It's one thing saying "don't talk that way to me", and quite another saying "never talk that way at all if I have even remotest chance of overhearing it".

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#497

Post by kyle_wm » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 9:34 PM UTC

Proleps wrote: post #428

jack-r-abbit wrote: post #305

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> these things are hard BOOM.. fired! See what happened there? You said it. I overreacted. You were fired. It actually is a real fear that something you say will unknowingly offend someone and get you in trouble. This has less to do with gender and sexism and more to do with just too many people being incapable of getting along. > automatically act in ways that don't offend anyone. Impossible. Everything is capable o…

> these things are hard >> BOOM.. fired! See what happened there? You said it. I overreacted. You were fired. It actually is a real fear that something you say will unknowingly offend someone and get you in trouble. This has less to do with gender and sexism and more to do with just too many people being incapable of getting along. Something similar actually happened on Twitter, Steve Marx said something about a lync…

"lynching" has a very well-established racial subtext in the US... I'm sure this person didn't intend it that way, but she pointed it out and he apologized, all of which seems completely reasonable.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#498

Post by WalterSear » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 9:37 PM UTC

camus wrote: post #259

ericabiz wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

You think women are having hard time in tech ? then you sure dont want to be black like me ,with people refusing to work with "niggers" ...

Wow.

A couple of my black friends said they were more sensitive of their race when they would visit their home, and that they felt more at ease in their work and silicon valley social groups than with their relatives and childhood friends. One of them spent her holidays alone, rather than go home, or visit with other people's families because it was too distressing.

IMHO, it was really a class issue masquerading as race but regardless, it sucked. People need to grow the fuck up.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#499

Post by abalone » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 9:37 PM UTC

georgeorwell wrote: post #435

ericabiz wrote: post #217

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> "Most [all, actually] of the women I've talked to about this are furious with her over how badly this portrays women." Okay, time to speak up! Hi, I'm a woman in tech. And this upset me, but not for the reasons you think. I agree that Adria went too far in publicly Tweeting and "name and shaming" these guys. But the vitriol and hate that has spewed forth online to her is what takes my breath away. Comments calling…

I'm sorry, but you just threw up two different straw (wo)men here. It's not sexist to make jokes about the word "dongle" sounding like "dong". They sound pretty similar. It's not very funny unless you're bored stiff or in grade five, but nevertheless it's pretty harmless joke material, and it isn't sexism. The examples you gave are sexism. If the two guys at PyCon had directed the jokes at Adria while also excluding…

Death threats and the rage of a thousand misogynists is hardly a "tit for tat kind of situation." She may have misunderstood the forking comment, but that does not constitute abuse. Publicly shaming obnoxious behavior may be an overreaction, but it's nothing like the true, actual sexist and racist abuse that Richards has endured.

Re: SendGrid Fires Company Evangelist After Twitter Fracas

#500

Post by Domenic_S » Thu, Mar 21, 2013, 9:40 PM UTC

lucisferre wrote: post #486

Domenic_S wrote: post #471

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What do I do? Do I call him out by name? Right now it's been a week and I'm still working out the best course of action. Seems like a lot of energy spent on a flippant remark. Those aren't restricted to men saying them about wives/women, either. I don't want to get into some kind of /r/mensrights foolishness here, but have you sat at a coffeeshop and listened to the kinds of remarks women make about their husbands/…

"Everybody Loves Raymond" is your evidence here. I'm not interested in arguing the point here, but come on. It's a show by a man, about a man, written by (mostly) men. How is that relevant?

It's relevant because it's an example of pop culture, and pop culture mirrors culture's values (hence, "pop[ular]").

There are a thousand shows on TV with a thousand examples, not to mention advertising. It's a trope: http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/BumblingDad