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Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

dailyprincetonian.com

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Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#491

Post by rcbdev »

palata wrote: post #58
JumpCrisscross wrote: post #15

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> What on earth could be the objection to proctoring? There is a unique pride in being part of a community built around honor. You see this on the Swiss metro and in small-town vegetable stalls. Unproctored exams force every student to weigh the value of their honor against a better grade. That's a personal moral reckoning that might be worth the entire degree.

What is "Swiss metro"? Curious now.

In Vienna, where there is not a single automated check for public transport tickets (annual passes are analog plastic cards, one-way tickets are paper), there is consistently a less than ~2% fraud rate. So over 98% of users have a valid ticket at any time.

The City of Vienna has concluded that the cost of building such checkpoints combined with the reduced quality of service and the destruction of the city image could never be worth it. I wonder how other cities justify this without implicitly calling their denizens morally inferior to ours.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#492

Post by Ekaros »

culi wrote: post #464
busyant wrote: post #346

I was a grad student @ Princeton a handful of decades ago. I was a TA for a few classes and, given the honor code, we did not proctor the exams for undergrads. We just handed them out (left the room) and returned to collect them at the end. - One of the exams in a course that I TAed had 5 free-response questions. - There were also 5 TAs in that class, so we un-stapled the exams and each TA graded one question (for co…

I wish I as a student had this power. I took an exam once for a class I had taken before (transfer student woes). I went into the hall, took the easy exam, turned it in, and left. They lost my test. I had no idea until 3 weeks later when exam scores were finally uploaded and mine was missing. The quarter was over and what the hell could I possibly do at that point? I had no possible evidence to give to show that I no…

When I was at university you returned the test and singed on shared list that you had participated. So if your name was on the list it was proof that you were at least in the room at the time. Probably more so done to track registrations vs participation but would also help in these situtations.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#493

Post by throwaway2037 »

scoofy wrote: post #374
CSMastermind wrote: post #275

People blame AI but in reality it's more about America transitioning from a high-trust society to a low-trust one.

I mean, I find myself saying this all the time. It explains so, so much about American culture. We're transitioning from an honor culture to a "don't be a sucker" culture. The example I always point to is golf. I'm a huge golf nerd, and if there's one thing I hate it's professional golf. They sit there and pretend it's a "gentleman's game" and then let people like Patrick Reed openly and obviously cheat... repeatedly…

For the record: Las Vegas had sports betting (other than horses) from the mid 1970s. The real issue is the recent mass legalisation of sports betting by many US states and the ability the gamble from your mobile phone.

Last: I never heard of Patrick Reed before your post. I Googled him. Check it out: "Reed's collegiate career was cut short following his dismissal from the University of Georgia golf team. Allegations from teammates included cheating in qualifying rounds and stealing merchandise and money from the team locker room..." What a stand up guy!

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#494

Post by rcbdev »

paganel wrote: post #125
yeahwhatever10 wrote: post #72

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I assume they are referring to systems like TPG in Geneva. Basically you buy a pass and when you get on an off a bus or street car there is no checking of payment it is just assumed everyone is "honoring" the agreement to pay. Every once and a while transit cops will board and check that everyone has a pass/has paid somehow and if you get caught not paying it can affect your ability to rent housing etc.

> it can affect your ability to rent housing This is insane, but I guess it fits the Swiss (and Geneva more specifically) quite well. And before anyone starts babbling here about the Swiss's rectitude, Geneva itself is host to this giant international money-laundering abomination: > Geneva Freeport (French: Ports Francs et Entrepôts de Genève SA) is a warehouse complex in Geneva, Switzerland, for the storage of art a…

Just wait until you learn of other countries' "Freeports" (Zollfreilager) like i.e. Vienna's vie:artport. It's common practice.

Adding to that, the airports and the freeports are sometimes privately run. It's not like the municipal government could do something even if they wanted to in some cases.

But sure, be angry at things you don't fully understand. That's surely healthy.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#495

Post by frank_nitti »

vjk800 wrote: post #478
marsten wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Academic integrity committees at prestigious schools are horribly lax. They want these types of issues to go away quietly. I have a friend who in college had another student take his test from the "complete" pile, erase my friend's name, and put on his own instead. It was only through blind luck that my friend figured it out. He, the TA, and the professor reported it – with smoking gun proof – but nothing happened. T…

> Academic integrity committees at prestigious schools are horribly lax. They want these types of issues to go away quietly. Yes, because the working model is that the students are there because they want to learn. And they are paying for the professors to teach them. If they cheat in classes, they are really just cheating themselves, and this should be no concern to the staff.

I would argue they are also cheating other students in their chosen field, and any future employers who place high value on prestige of applicants’ university, no?

If the only tangible, marketable value of graduating from a prestigious school was the raw knowledge and skill, I would agree with you. But it’s not.

Having worked with people who clearly got preferential treatment in hiring based on their school’s prestige, over more capable applicants from lower-tier schools, I absolutely lose respect for staff at universities who turn a blind eye to cheating.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#496

Post by nerdsniper »

csiegert wrote: post #376
busyant wrote: post #368

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have no recollection of the student's name. ~150 students in the class, so they were all a blur. This was also a few years before the web took hold, so I could not have "Google-stalked" her even if I had been so inclined. I do remember my fellow TA's name! But that's probably not surprising.

[flagged]

If I ran HN this would be a bannable comment. I understand the importance of accountability - but we're discussing systemic issues, not an isolated memory from 30 years ago which is subject to the corruption of time.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#497

Post by nerdsniper »

hammock wrote: post #380
busyant wrote: post #346

I was a grad student @ Princeton a handful of decades ago. I was a TA for a few classes and, given the honor code, we did not proctor the exams for undergrads. We just handed them out (left the room) and returned to collect them at the end. - One of the exams in a course that I TAed had 5 free-response questions. - There were also 5 TAs in that class, so we un-stapled the exams and each TA graded one question (for co…

There is an easy solution to Princeton’s problem, and it’s to have an honor system with a backbone. The way honor historically worked. At my private high school, and at my university (although they later gutted it), we had a “single sanction” honor code. That is, if you were caught lying, cheating, or stealing - in any way, and in or out of school, though usually it was in - you were immediately expelled. No mitigati…

This only works if the school doesn't accept meaningfully large donations from families of some of its students.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#498

Post by Ekaros »

lesuorac wrote: post #300
amirhirsch wrote: post #197

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At least in my experience (MIT ’06) many of the people most comfortable gaming academics ended up in finance. I've always felt that it was these kind of folks that caused the 2008 financial crisis

Intentionally or negligently caused '08?

Intentional negligence? In many parts any reasonable looking into future should have made it clear things were unsustainable. Both on loan origination where rates would end up unsustainable for borrowers but also the derivative side with unsustainable liabilities. Screams of being intentional and negligent at same time, but it did make money.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#499

Post by nerdsniper »

rayiner wrote: post #473
hattmall wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These sort of unmanned roadside stands are all over the southern US.

In major cities? LKY was talking about an unmanned newspaper stand and cash box in Trafalgar Square. Would that work in Times Square today?

We do have "little libraries" where anyone can take or leave books in many people's yards. But I haven't seen the honor system produce stands in urban areas for the past 10+ years.

Re: Princeton mandates proctoring for in-person exams, upending 133 year precedent

#500

Post by throwaway2037 »

JumpCrisscross wrote: post #15
hcurtiss wrote: post #2

Princeton is a strange place. What on earth could be the objection to proctoring? I'd much rather have a proctor than have to narc on a classmate. And even then, the proctor just reports the matter to a student-run body? Wild.

> What on earth could be the objection to proctoring? There is a unique pride in being part of a community built around honor. You see this on the Swiss metro and in small-town vegetable stalls. Unproctored exams force every student to weigh the value of their honor against a better grade. That's a personal moral reckoning that might be worth the entire degree.

    > Swiss metro
I guess you mean they don't have fare gates? I quickly Googled about it and found this article: https://lenews.ch/2025/03/21/the-rapid-rise-of-fare-dodging-...

To quote: "In 2024, more than 1 million cases of fare evasion were recorded in Switzerland, reported RTS. The number has more than doubled since 2019."

High trust, eh? Here is a better explanation: Someone smart did the math and discovered that for many Swiss mass transit systems (there are many), they could get better overall revenue by (1) removing the expense of buying and maintaining fare gates, and (2) adding fare dodging penalties and enforcement staff. FYI: Berlin is similar.

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