Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the open source invisible hand makes everything completely free. In this case the limitation is the compute. Very few people have the compute required for AI/LLMs locally or for free (comparable to the performance of Claude). So yes, there are plenty of Open Source models that can be used locally but you need to invest in hardware to make that happen and especially if you want the quality that is available from the…
>In this case the limitation is the compute. I agree with most of your points, but computation can be transferred from a place where energy is cheap to a place that is expensive. Energy for cooking cannot be transferred that way. See for example Amazon-Google datacenters in the Gulf region. We've also got a whole continent, Australia, to put as many solar panels as we desire. Australia got dark for half a day, every…
Thoughts on slowing the fuck down
491–500 of 505 posts
Re: Thoughts on slowing the fuck down
#492Earlier quoted context omitted.
Well, sure. Trying to plan events at incomprehensibly large scale is like that, as the 20th century collectivist states failed largely in consequence of too late discovering. You have to retain a sense of scale in these things, not to say humility. Meanwhile, cannabis legalization in the US proceeds apace as a fifty-state patchwork, with simple possession still a major felony some places, while commercial distributio…
Good points. I was similarly appalled and shocked at Gas Town. Maybe something like it is the future, but I really didn't expect Yegge to be a genAI booster. If Gas Town has "the Quality Without a Name," I will eat my hat. https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/tour-de-babel
Re: Thoughts on slowing the fuck down
#493I would go further and remove that second option. If the code is important, LLM support or not, write it yourself.
At least for me, there is a clear qualitative difference in thinking between typing the code and watching it being typed, even if I follow along with every line.
If I type it, my brain is constantly questioning whether what I'm doing is correct. What are the edge cases here? Is this introducing a vulnerability? Am I getting the right data from the right place?
By watching an agent or someone else code, the mindset is different. I'm checking someone else's work under the implicit assumption that they have some idea of what they're doing and I'm just reviewing mostly for superficial stuff. I can force myself to ask those other questions, but it takes conscious effort and isn't sustainable over long sessions.
I play around with agentic coding, but I'm always shocked at how much worse the result is compared to working in a separate chat and typing (not pasting!) the suggestions. In the direct comparison, it's easy to see how agentic code turns so incredibly shit so ridiculously fast.
Re: Thoughts on slowing the fuck down
#494Re: Thoughts on slowing the fuck down
#495Earlier quoted context omitted.
Also reminded me of Kafka (Kafka as a database!) and microservices (monoliths are evil, microservices are the future). I'm sure we can dig up similar hypes on various scales throughout the history of this industry... Perhaps so-called AI is slightly different from hypes like NoSql and microservices in that these reduced to usages that practically apply to only a fraction of the engineering population (albeit, it's st…
Technology moves fast and is prone to hype. While NoSQL and Kafka were certainly oversold, almost every mid-large scale tech company has at least one nosql system and kafka-like system in use. The proponents weren’t wrong, they oversold the impact. There is other tech that did completely change how we do things. CI/CD, Containers, Kubernetes, distributed tracing etc. are considered standard now (but weren’t not that…
Re: Thoughts on slowing the fuck down
#496Earlier quoted context omitted.
Good points. I was similarly appalled and shocked at Gas Town. Maybe something like it is the future, but I really didn't expect Yegge to be a genAI booster. If Gas Town has "the Quality Without a Name," I will eat my hat. https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/tour-de-babel
(Thank you for a pleasant and thought-provoking conversation, by the way! All hopes for a favorable Friday and weekend.)
Re: Thoughts on slowing the fuck down
#497Earlier quoted context omitted.
Good points. I was similarly appalled and shocked at Gas Town. Maybe something like it is the future, but I really didn't expect Yegge to be a genAI booster. If Gas Town has "the Quality Without a Name," I will eat my hat. https://sites.google.com/site/steveyegge2/tour-de-babel
Oh, God, spare me from the architect who must be sure he is seen to be one with the Tao. Its name is 无为 and Emacs, which I have used exclusively since 2010, does not "have" it, although a given human Emacs user may. (But see previously my comments with respect to js2-mode; Yegge's enthusiasm of the moment notwithstanding, he was at least not then the most obviously reliable judge.) It isn't something that can exist i…
I can roughly intuit how it might be something which can only be relevant in the presence of consciousness, despite my near-total lack of knowledge of any religious tradition outside the Western ones.
I agree that conscious programs in some sense are conceivable, but I'm skeptical of it myself especially in comprehensible programs, however large - something self-documenting and readable is nearly the opposite of the human brain, which is the only thing we really have strong reason to believe is conscious (by way of each possessing one).
Re: Thoughts on slowing the fuck down
#498Earlier quoted context omitted.
Oh, God, spare me from the architect who must be sure he is seen to be one with the Tao. Its name is 无为 and Emacs, which I have used exclusively since 2010, does not "have" it, although a given human Emacs user may. (But see previously my comments with respect to js2-mode; Yegge's enthusiasm of the moment notwithstanding, he was at least not then the most obviously reliable judge.) It isn't something that can exist i…
I did not realize that Yegge was referencing the Tao with that, though it certainly had some of that aesthetic flavor to my untutored Western ears. I can roughly intuit how it might be something which can only be relevant in the presence of consciousness, despite my near-total lack of knowledge of any religious tradition outside the Western ones. I agree that conscious programs in some sense are conceivable, but I'm…
I'm not actually much of a mystic, though some who've known me might disagree, especially after that last paragraph! My concept of consciousness is broadly both mechanistic and scalar, which having arisen is reliably conserved because abstraction, reflection, and introspection are behaviors whose adaptive benefit easily compounds on itself. (The singularitarians aren't wrong that getting smarter makes you better at getting smarter; they just have no idea what "smart" means.) I am also wholly unapologetic about the wholly intuitive and qualitative nature of that understanding, not least because to be both at once places me serenely beyond the moist and smelly grasp of rote scientism. For example, my friends who've been wasps were not less conscious in my estimation than myself and my friends who are human, but I would say they perhaps reflect and ramify less deeply. One might resort for a mental model to the concept of a space-filling or Peano curve [1]: we iterate many orders more deeply than even the most capacious of social wasps, to be sure! But I have seen a Polistes exclamans wasp comfort her anxious and frightened sister with a hug in my kitchen (2), and I've seen them learn me as the final waypoint of what, given the unusually capable aerialism and extensive navigational skills of the average Polistes metricus forager, could well have been a longer and more complex daily commute than mine. (And I never have to deal with birds trying to eat me!)
So these are not at all stupid or robotic animals, the social wasps. As terrestrial predators and foragers who hunt energetically expensive prey by sight, they experience many of the same selection pressures as we do toward episodic memory, constructive theory of mind, kinship recognition by sight rather than odor (and thus at much greater distance,) and other such relatively complex cognitive skills. Also, I have watched a wasp sleep, and seen the rate of her breathing oscillate in a fairly close parallel to the periodicity one sees in the stages of mammalian sleep. I believe they may experience something very like the voluntary paralysis of our REM sleep. I believe there is no reason for such an inhibitory circuit to develop and be conserved, other than the reason we have it. In short I believe they may very well dream, in some way meaningfully like we do, and again for the same reasons. (I incline, in my incompetently autodidactic manner, toward the "integrated information theory" expounded by Hoel, at least inasmuch as I borrow the need for balancing surprise minimization versus overfitting avoidance, but I'm not really dogmatic about it.) And finally, ineluctably, I defy anyone anywhere to show me that of any kind which dreams yet is not conscious.
These are not only (or not all only) individual observations via personal correspondence, either; I'm happy to cite and discuss at length the specific details of the ethology and neurology underlying such complex behavior, which I may not be the first to observe is strongly suggestive of social wasps exercising a constructive theory of mind for a species deeply dissimilar to themselves, ie we H. sap. A good lay overview, written much from a love which I recognize, is Seirian Sumner's 2022 Endless Forms. I forget offhand if she is as explicit as I'm being, but that's okay; no one really of whom I'm aware is really making the kind of (what is arguably a) leap that I am, to treat consciousness in this way; an unkind critic might accuse me of half-assing my way to some half-baked animism, through a daytime-TV pop science conception of consciousness as waves hands I dunno...holographic? Luckily, with no costly postnominals to defend nor student loans to defray, I suppose I'm free to say more or less what I like. (Such as that, if Sumner leaves you wanting more, a good next step into entomology proper - and one of my own first sources! - is 2018's The Social Biology of Wasps.)
Even the largest and fanciest frontier model (properly the vast infrastructure which serves it, which may to some useful ends be considered as a kind of organism) is many orders of magnitude less complex in both "neurome" and connectome than even the most basal of social wasps, and there is no real cause to expect this will change in our lifetime. (Wasps are not getting simpler, and God as yet still stubbornly refuses to be invented by Sam Altman.) A human's brain of course ramifies as many orders further still, but no matter; if there was only ever one example of "Shit's Easy syndrome," I must surely be making fun of it now, in the idea that our programs express our minds more magically than any other form of human mechanism or artifice, so much so as to encapsulate much less surpass.
If a conscious computer system ever arises - and note by that 'in the broad sense,' I include eg the idea of the entire planetary network considered as "a" consciousness, so we're definitely not aiming for any immediate or concrete mapping for that intentionally nebulous concept - then I confide there will also arise humans able to recognize it as like themselves, and vice versa. I would not expect them to find it more comprehensible than they find themselves, or for that matter than it would likely find itself or them. Good grief, who ever does in this life?
(And at no doubt welcome last, thanks once more for the nudge to further work in clarifying my thesis and its argument, perhaps not without interest. I regret if I've given the impression of making light of your faith despite that I do not share it. Oh, I have my differences with Them Upstairs, and we'll work those out by and by - but that is no fault of yours so far as I know, and I hope I haven't made it too much your problem.)
[1] https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Space-filling_curve
(2) I was sheltering them from a cold snap, an experience more or less semiotically indistinguishable for them from an alien abduction, although I of course had the grace as a host not to stress them unnecessarily. We all had a hell of a fight on our hands anyway, the night the local pavement ant supercolony caught wind and mounted an invasion, but the next morning was finally warm and mild enough for them to disperse. I suppose things turned out well enough in their eyes, since the family stuck around and we were porch neighbors for a few years after that.
Re: Thoughts on slowing the fuck down
#499Earlier quoted context omitted.
> the open source invisible hand makes everything completely free. In this case the limitation is the compute. Very few people have the compute required for AI/LLMs locally or for free (comparable to the performance of Claude). So yes, there are plenty of Open Source models that can be used locally but you need to invest in hardware to make that happen and especially if you want the quality that is available from the…
>In this case the limitation is the compute. I agree with most of your points, but computation can be transferred from a place where energy is cheap to a place that is expensive. Energy for cooking cannot be transferred that way. See for example Amazon-Google datacenters in the Gulf region. We've also got a whole continent, Australia, to put as many solar panels as we desire. Australia got dark for half a day, every…
That is such an incredibly simplistic view and now how anything works.
Re: Thoughts on slowing the fuck down
#500It occurred to me on my walk today that a program is not the only output of programming. The other, arguably far more important output, is the programmer. The mental model that you, the programmer, build by writing the program. And -- here's the million dollar question -- can we get away with removing our hands from the equation? You may know that knowledge lives deeper than "thought-level" -- much of it lives in mus…
The phone number muscle memory example is perfect. There is a whole category of knowledge you only have if your hands did the work.