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Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

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Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#491

Post by scheeseman486 »

pjmlp wrote: post #469
scheeseman486 wrote: post #457

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Unfortunely Valve failed to make native Linux gaming a reality Who cares? What would that actually achieve and how would they have practically achieved it anyway? Use their store platform to force or coerce developers? Hold a gun to developers heads? Valve don't owe anyone shit, neither did PC compatible BIOS manufacturers, nor anyone else who creates a clean room implementation of a pre-existing API. Getting Windo…

Linux users will care when the fountain of Windows games needed to feed Proton dries out. Do you think Valve and Gabe will be around forever?

Is anything around forever? What kind of argument is this?

Proton works by wrapping Windows calls to Linux equivalents, which have been improving and becoming more robust as a result of this work. If the Windows game ecosystem collapses (How? When? It's literally never been more popular) then those equivalent APIs can be targeted instead. Meanwhile, the absolutely massive PC back catalogue, the platform's greatest strength, remains playable.

Where's the downside?

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#492

Post by elsjaako »

subscribed wrote: post #436
elsjaako wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use an old version of Gnome and accept older software, or you can organize some fellow GNOME enthusiasts to maintain it, possibly with paid developers. You can't legally get old versions of Windows or Photoshop, and you can't legally fix them if you find problems. GNOME gives you that freedom. This isn't just a theoretical possibility: both MATE and Cinnamon are GNOME forks. You can argue that maintaining and…

Unless security patches are still developed and released for older versions, I'd strongly discourage it.

Yes, and the developers of Gnome are strongly encouraging you to move to Wayland. You are free to ignore that suggestion.

If you delete the first 13 words from my previous comment it may be a more suitable comment for you.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#493

Post by elsjaako »

NetMageSCW wrote: post #428
elsjaako wrote: post #375

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You can use an old version of Gnome and accept older software, or you can organize some fellow GNOME enthusiasts to maintain it, possibly with paid developers. You can't legally get old versions of Windows or Photoshop, and you can't legally fix them if you find problems. GNOME gives you that freedom. This isn't just a theoretical possibility: both MATE and Cinnamon are GNOME forks. You can argue that maintaining and…

You can legally get old versions of Windows, but it isn’t recommended.

Technically you can get second-hand keys, but good luck verifying that it's actually a legal resale. Also good luck getting the latest, most up to date version of Vista.

You still aren't allowed to start a group to collectively patch bugs in the old version.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#494

Post by antisol »

jrm4 wrote: post #481
antisol wrote: post #463

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Isn't it interesting how perspectives differ? See, I'd argue that the "nobody is forcing you" rhetoric, spoken out loud and with a straight face while vendors drop support for decades-old, stable, and well-established standards in favour of immature, incompatible, broken new shininess, is an extremely dated argument strategy.

Are we disagreeing? It sounds like we agree.

No, we're not. Sorry, my bad.

It would seem I didn't read your post properly, I think I must have just been tired or something. I took "who is forced to use it" as a statement (i.e "I'm a user who is forced to use it") rather than a question. Reading it again now when I'm awake it makes a lot more sense!

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#495

Post by antisol »

palata wrote: post #453
jrm4 wrote: post #386

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, double down -- You personally are not forced to use it, but today this is a terrible argument that, perhaps subconsciously, reinforces the falsehood that "you don't have to use it" is an okay and reasonable response, when it's really merely a selfish one. Again, Linux is everywhere and the better thing to do is to consider how the bad rollout of Wayland affects everyone -- especially, e.g. that rising 2 or 3 perc…

> It is FAR more important to raise that marketshare I don't see why. Most users of OSes couldn't care less about their OS. The vast majority of humans are happy with Windows, macOS, iOS or Android. To the point where those who aren't are a rounding error. I don't want to make Linux look like Windows, such that those people can finally use Linux and I can proudly look at a marketshare. If a Linux distro ever gets a "…

  > I don't see why
I'll take a stab at this, setting aside all the arguments I could make about software freedom, etc etc (and there's lots of those).

Regardless of which distro you use or how into free software you are, there's a very simple truth: the more Linux users there are, the more people will develop software for Linux. More software supporting Linux == better.

This applies both to proprietary software that people might want (e.g I'd kill for a Linux-native version of FL studio, the only thing I use wine for these days), and also for FLOSS software (more Linux users -> more exposure to FLOSS ideals -> more converts -> more FLOSS software).

Having the ecosystem grow is a good thing.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#496

Post by 2colours »

DonHopkins wrote: post #309
happymellon wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you don't know what's going on, why comment? A guy decided that after getting all his patches rejected because they cause tests to fail, doesn't compile, etc. that the problem is everyone else and decided to fork XOrg. He then announced that the problem wasn't his code that didn't compile but DEI so based the entire forking around being a political conservative. Everything I've seen written by him shows him to be…

"... generic human experiment ... creates a new humanoid race ... toxic spike protein ..." - Enrico Weigelt on LKML "... insane and technically incorrect ... idiotic lies ... you don't know what you are talking about ... SHUT THE HELL UP ..." - Linus Torvalds https://lkml.org/lkml/2021/6/10/957 It's not just his code. The COVID conspiracy theories Enrico Weigelt pushes are riddled with bugs, logical errors, and secur…

This is indeed not at all about his code. I don't care what he thinks of vaccines and COVID - I just as much don't care what Linus Torvalds thinks about these things. They are damn programmers. Their business is to ship reliable, usable, secure software.

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#497

Post by Kiboneu »

BowBun wrote: post #484
Kiboneu wrote: post #379

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Even something as simple as alt-tabbing lagged for seconds on an overpowered machine. In what way? If there’s a delay for the task switching menu to close after alt-tabbing (~500ms) this might be due to a kde animation default (it really tripped me up, I’m a rapid window switcher). I can share the fix once I get on my kde machine.

The specific thing I noticed was that, when pressing alt-tab the very first time, there was a noticeable, variable delay for the actual window previews to appear. I don't care as much about the window previews, but the delay in feedback to know which window I was potentially focusing on was painful. I also alt-tab like a madman, for better or for worse. Testing this now on Windows, after I press tab there is an _imme…

Does disabling “fade popups in and out” help? Settings -> Animations

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#498

Post by snapplebobapple »

bhewes wrote: post #116
palata wrote: post #60

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Anecdotally, my experience with Wayland has been a lot better than with X11. I have been on Wayland for years, I can't remember the last time I had an issue (running Sway).

Same here. Wayland has been fine. (Hyprland)

Me too. I just swapped waybar etc for the dank shell etc and love the setup. It feels polished now

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#499

Post by jrm4 »

antisol wrote: post #494
jrm4 wrote: post #481

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Are we disagreeing? It sounds like we agree.

No, we're not. Sorry, my bad. It would seem I didn't read your post properly, I think I must have just been tired or something. I took "who is forced to use it" as a statement (i.e "I'm a user who is forced to use it") rather than a question. Reading it again now when I'm awake it makes a lot more sense!

Hehe, I was confused like -- no yes this what I think too!

Re: Wayland set the Linux Desktop back by 10 years?

#500

Post by jhasse »

pjmlp wrote: post #426
jhasse wrote: post #359

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Audio APIs on Android are completely different than on GNU/Linux. 3D was also different (OpenGL ES vs OpenGL mess), only now it's starting to become kinda the same with Vulkan.

Nope, they are also available as they are Khronos standards for audio, and Mesa also does OpenGL ES. Do you need a tutorial?

You mean OpenSL ES? Is anyone actually using that on desktop? On Android there's https://github.com/google/oboe.

While Mesa has OpenGL ES it wasn't always available (for example not all drivers are using Mesa).

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