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Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

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Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#491

Post by mjevans »

iamcalledrob wrote: post #377
xp84 wrote: post #370

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Spot-on analysis. I agree that transport should operate on a basically break-even basis, but offset in two ways: 1. Where the Government wants to subsidize some group (e.g. help the disadvantaged by giving them discounts) they should pay the fair price to the transit agency out of the budget of Welfare, not drag on the financials of the transport agency. In other words, it shouldn't be possible that the transport age…

Incidentally, London has a "Freedom Pass" (free transport for retirees), which is funded in the way you describe. Instead of TfL being forced to take the loss, they are reimbursed by local government cost of the transport. As an aside, I also take some issue with this pass being completely free to use. In my experience, people end up using it to go a single stop just because it's free, so why not -- which slows bus s…

Taking such a fee also has transaction costs, in the time if nothing else.

To liken this back to the old days - the difference in time between flashing a valid transfer slip (of paper) and having to drop change into the automated till.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#492

Post by gbbgbbgbb »

cyberax wrote: post #486
yunwal wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a bus every 10 minutes is effectively 500-900 meters long! uhhhhhh what. What does every 10 minutes have to do with this at all > It easily "takes" as much space as 100+ cars. are you ok??? have you seen a bus before?? > A single bus needs about 3 drivers to be effective I have never ever seen a bus with 3 drivers in it. If you're talking about 3 drivers over the course of 24h, those drivers are not in the bus at t…

> uhhhhhh what. What does every 10 minutes have to do with this at all See the word "effective". Think about the road space that a bus requires but doesn't use if it is just once per 10 minutes. > I have never ever seen a bus with 3 drivers in it. If you're talking about 3 drivers over the course of 24h, those drivers are not in the bus at the same time, and therefore don't make up 20% of the passengers on the bus. Y…

> See the word "effective". Think about the road space that a bus requires but doesn't use if it is just once per 10 minutes.

Excepting the case of a dedicated bus lane, the amount of road space a bus is preventing other cars from taking up at a given time is equal to the size of the bus. Technically, it's less than that in the case of bus stops littered amongst parking. In the case of a dedicated lane, it reduces the maximum throughput of the thoroughfare, but it's not a simple thing to model as there are other effects that the bus can have to reduce the number of cars when the rate limit of thoroughfare would be pertinent (i.e. usually rush hour). Just saying "think about it" when saying a bus takes up the space of 100+ cars doesn't really substantiate such a bold claim.

> Yes, I'm talking about the drivers that are needed for a reasonable 16-hour bus service. And the typical ratio is actually a bit more than 3 drivers per 1 bus.

> No. I'm saying that on _average_ there are 15 people in a bus. More during the rush hour, fewer during the off-hours.

If there is an average of 15 passengers on the bus during the operations of the bus and there is an average of 1 driver on the bus during the operations of the bus, then it is 1/16th occupied by driver(s). For it to be taken 20% by driver occupancy, then it would require there to be an average of 4 passengers on the bus during operations.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#493

Post by bobthepanda »

alexjplant wrote: post #268
janalsncm wrote: post #118

I believe the central thesis of this article is unsupported, and other assertions are false. One, the article asserts that too many stops is the main cause of low ridership in the US. I didn’t even see a correlation (which would still not prove one causes the other) between number of stops and ridership. This is the central thesis of the article. Two, removing stops will likely not make the remaining stops nicer. Cit…

> One, the article asserts that too many stops is the main cause of low ridership in the US. I didn’t even see a correlation (which would still not prove one causes the other) between number of stops and ridership. This is the central thesis of the article. n = 1 but this is precisely why I seldom rode the bus in college. Except for going clear across campus in the evening to apartment complexes that were a semi-subs…

They could work, but in countries where they do work you have some combination of police actually willing to write traffic citations and cameras.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#494

Post by bobthepanda »

som wrote: post #466
janalsncm wrote: post #118

I believe the central thesis of this article is unsupported, and other assertions are false. One, the article asserts that too many stops is the main cause of low ridership in the US. I didn’t even see a correlation (which would still not prove one causes the other) between number of stops and ridership. This is the central thesis of the article. Two, removing stops will likely not make the remaining stops nicer. Cit…

As others have pointed out a mix of express (and even "rocket") services, rather than physically removing bus stops, already works wonders outside of the US. Combine that with improvements to things like waiting areas (i.e. introducing shade), frequency of services, price (in my closest city they introduced essentially free public transport for all - it's been a boon), and you've got something that can be effectively…

The article mentions that other countries have much higher spacing between stops to begin with, so in that sense they don’t remove bus stops today because they already have.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#495

Post by JoeMerchant »

Filligree wrote: post #348
ecshafer wrote: post #251

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Does Chicago not mandate people shovel their drives ways? In most towns/cities in upstate new york you can get a fine if you don't shovel your sidewalk.

What? Why do they care whether people shovel their driveway?

sidewalk, not driveway. It's so folks can walk on said sidewalk.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#496

Post by AnthonyMouse »

Karrot_Kream wrote: post #451
AnthonyMouse wrote: post #432

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Building a subway in most US cities right now is very expensive. This is true but seems like a problem worth solving. It's also true of more than subways; we have the same problem with bridges, housing and many other things. Better to get on with fixing it than use it as an excuse for doing something worse. > Moreover you're going to have to close the road down anyway That's a one-time cost, and you're not required…

I agree with you (and importantly you can't make a subway political football the way you can make a bus lane), but my experience doing transit advocacy points otherwise. Americans in dense areas are feeling the HCOL pinch and are not very willing to float extra taxes to fund transit expansion. IMO it comes back to the fact that Americans are just not willing to accept change of any kind right now. The economy feels t…

It was probably always a good idea to do it the other way around anyway: You don't start with transit, you start by building more housing. Tons of it. Then the cost of living starts to get back under control and the density increases some, which you need in order to make transit work regardless.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#497

Post by yunwal »

cyberax wrote: post #486
yunwal wrote: post #480

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> a bus every 10 minutes is effectively 500-900 meters long! uhhhhhh what. What does every 10 minutes have to do with this at all > It easily "takes" as much space as 100+ cars. are you ok??? have you seen a bus before?? > A single bus needs about 3 drivers to be effective I have never ever seen a bus with 3 drivers in it. If you're talking about 3 drivers over the course of 24h, those drivers are not in the bus at t…

> uhhhhhh what. What does every 10 minutes have to do with this at all See the word "effective". Think about the road space that a bus requires but doesn't use if it is just once per 10 minutes. > I have never ever seen a bus with 3 drivers in it. If you're talking about 3 drivers over the course of 24h, those drivers are not in the bus at the same time, and therefore don't make up 20% of the passengers on the bus. Y…

So where is the 20% of passengers are drivers thing even coming from?

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#498

Post by behringer »

Retric wrote: post #205
LucasBrandt wrote: post #165

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But lots of people _do_ already ride buses! There are already current riders, and potential riders who are making these marginal decisions. Occasional riders will decide between transport modes based on the trip - making marginal improvements (or regressions) would change the rate at which they choose to ride the bus. Even if every current person's mind has been completely made up based on past experience, there are…

> I'm personally able to walk a block or two further “A block or 2” each way at the start and destination is a significant difference (4-8 blocks) for most elderly people. Busses fill two different roles, as primary means of transportation and arguably more importantly as a backup means of transportation. They can serve a vital role for cities without the kind of investment it would take to make most typical HN reade…

It also completely eats up their time savings.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#499

Post by sholladay »

As a passenger, I often think to myself, "Why is the bus stopping here? There was a a stop just two blocks ago." Invariably, the bus then has to wait for someone to move out of the way before it can pull in. It's very inefficient. Stops should be about 10 walking minutes apart at minimum.

Re: Bus stop balancing is fast, cheap, and effective

#500

Post by riffraff »

sholladay wrote: post #499

As a passenger, I often think to myself, "Why is the bus stopping here? There was a a stop just two blocks ago." Invariably, the bus then has to wait for someone to move out of the way before it can pull in. It's very inefficient. Stops should be about 10 walking minutes apart at minimum.

I think if the bus has to wait to pull in there's also an outstanding problem there.

Having lived in EUropean cities with both efficient and terrible bus performances, the presence of separate lanes, large unencumbered stops or good urban architecture/road decor makes a significant difference.

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