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We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

theguardian.com

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Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#491

Post by entropyneur »

John23832 wrote: post #486
entropyneur wrote: post #473

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why would anyone want to become a Chinese citizen? How's everyone discussing linguistics while completely ignoring the authoritarian elephant in the room?

Because the vast number of people already live under some variation of authoritarianism.

Comparatively few people live under worse authoritarianism than the one in China. Definitely not enough to form a talent pool that would make any dent in whatever China already has. Especially when you factor in education quality.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#492

Post by Hikikomori »

p-e-w wrote: post #239
lateforwork wrote: post #198

Earlier quoted context omitted.

China is trying. Around the time the US announced restrictions on the H-1B visa, China announced the K visa for attracting immigrants [1]. At this point in time, I don't think people are lining up to get K visa to go live in China. But if the current trajectory continues in the US, who knows how things will be in 5 years? [1] https://www.china-briefing.com/news/chinas-entry-exit-k-visa...

China has a global reputational problem that will take decades to fix. The US has a global reputational advantage that will take decades to fall behind China, regardless of what any US administration does. Nobody sane is going to believe rhetoric claiming that the US is somehow worse than a country that keeps 1.5 million people in concentration camps, and where people work 70 hours per week, no matter how many times…

>The US has a global reputational advantage that will take decades to fall behind China, regardless of what any US administration does.

Only if you ignore everything the US has done to the rest of the world.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#493

Post by alex43578 »

pantalaimon wrote: post #458
alex43578 wrote: post #416

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There’s also the fact that a huge portion of foreign immigrants to the US don’t and won’t learn English, but can still operate just fine (or even have the system cater to them - press 1 for Spanish). Look at the uproar over requiring commercial drivers to be able to read road signs in English.

The US also did annex large parts of what used to be Mexico in the 19th century, so you don't even technically have so be an immigrant to speak Spanish

Unless you're 126 years old, that excuse doesn't really hold up. Plenty of immigrants came from Italy, Poland, and Russia more recently than your mentioned time, but you don't hear Press 3 for Italian too often.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#494

Post by mschuster91 »

LtWorf wrote: post #487
mschuster91 wrote: post #459

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> They don't suppress foreign countries for that goal Oh hell yes they do. Chinese overfishing is wreaking havoc across the planet [1], not just near Asia, but the reach of Chinese fishing fleets goes as far as Africa and South America. In the case of Africa, this has been one of the contributing causes for people to flee to Europe. Then you got the stealing. America certainly isn't innocent either when it comes to I…

What are exactly the japanese fishing boats doing in the mediterranean?

I haven't found any references to Japan fishing in the Mediterranean, the only thing I could find is illegal fish farms in Croatia that farm fish to be exported to Japan and potentially "launder" illicitly caught Libyan fish [1].

While that is bad, it still is only a case of your typical piece of Balkan corruption - and actually being a Croatian citizen, I can only say one thing to these particular arseholes: jebo vam pas mater - and nowhere near comparable to what China is doing.

[1] https://asia.nikkei.com/politics/international-relations/ill...

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#495

Post by alex43578 »

autoexec wrote: post #489
alex43578 wrote: post #420

Earlier quoted context omitted.

No, you do have to choose because money for education (or anything) isn’t unlimited. There’s a real question of how many resources and what kind of ROI you’d get from trying to educate that bottom 20% to the same level. I saw this play out when I was in school: profoundly intellectually disabled students getting 1:1 or even 2:1 teaching, trying to get an 18 year old to be able to read 3 letter words, while AP classes…

> No, you do have to choose because money for education (or anything) isn’t unlimited. The US is the richest nation on Earth. It can easily afford to educate its people. If you really think we'd need to find new sources of tax dollars to fund that, I have a whole lot of suggestions for where to start and I'd bet that you can easily think of a few low hanging fruit yourself. > There’s a real question of how many resou…

The US already spends significantly more (both in absolute terms, and as a percent of GDP) than other developed countries, but with worse outcomes (particularly for non-white, non-Asian students).

The question is whether anyone actually expects the outcomes to change if we throw even more money at the problem, or if it'll just get gobbled up by teacher's unions, administration, and silly things like non-phonic instruction or DEI programs.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#496

Post by pvaldes »

dash2 wrote: post #373

The article provides absolutely no data to support any claims of a brain drain away from America, towards Europe or anywhere else. You’d think they would have found evidence if there was any. So after reading this, my prior on substantial numbers of researchers moving to Europe has gone down. There is an obvious plausible reason why there might not be much brain drain to Europe: salaries are much lower there, because…

> You’d think they would have found evidence if there was any.

Maybe somebody closed all public scientific databases, all government science webs, and harassed or fired thousands of scientists. That would explain the lack of public scientific data.

> salaries are much lower there, because Europe is poorer.

Salaries are just a number and should be always taken in the context of coast of living. Europe is diverse, with poor places and rich places. You can live like a king with a worse salary in many places. In the more expensive ones you will pay more taxes, but receive more services in exchange. You will enjoy 30 days of paid holidays a year, and a very diverse continent to roam free on that time. You will enjoy also universal healthcare, affordable groceries, a near to zero expectation of your children being murdered at the school, and much more options to choose a political party that suits your own interests if you don't like the current situation.

Europe has many problems and lots of idiomatic and cultural walls, of course; but at this moment US just looks like a terrible place to live or even visit. The government is purposely doing all that they can to fleece every citizen and burn down the entire place.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#497

Post by inglor_cz »

direwolf20 wrote: post #193
Cyph0n wrote: post #149

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just to add one more point that makes the US attractive to global talent: citizenship. In particular: 1) citizenship at birth and 2) viable path to citizenship via green card. Of course, both of these are in the crosshairs for “revision”.

It's much easier to get citizenship almost anywhere else in the world than to get it in the USA by green card.

Plenty of developed countries limit the easy way to their citizenship to ius sanguinus, and if you aren't a descendant of a previous national, you have to pass stringent language and culture tests.

I don't think you would find a Lithuanian or Finnish language test quite so easy.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#498

Post by hunterpayne »

autoexec wrote: post #395
rayiner wrote: post #351

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If teacher pay made a big difference in outcomes, expensive private schools would have very well paid teachers. But private schools typically have lower teacher pay than public schools.

Teacher pay doesn't have as large an influence on student success as it does on how many people are willing to enter the occupation and stay there. Private school teachers typically deal with far fewer students in the classroom and in much better conditions. They also don't typically have to spend as much of their own money on basic school supplies. Improving conditions at public schools and lowering classroom sizes…

Washington state has the highest public school teacher pay in the country (over 100k/yr). It also has educational outcomes which are middle of the pack. That correlation doesn't hold in many cases. Oh, and the fact that half of the funding for the district goes to administration doesn't help either.

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#499

Post by gizzlon »

oytis wrote: post #476
gizzlon wrote: post #451

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> but the real test will be the next presidential elections and, to a lesser extent, midterm Sorry, but that is just extremely naive. Just look at how this usually works. Or look at what the orange fuckhead tried the last time. Now, repeat, but with much more power and influence in all the right places, from government to big tech.

Sorry, I am not from the USA, but like many people know a lot more about it than I would like - still might be missing some context because of that. I am not sure how it really works - all these people who now support Trump in achieving their goals - why would they want to support him in staying in power indefinitely? Isn't it clear that when there is no democracy, their opinion doesn't matter anymore? It's still ver…

Me neither, and same!

I have no idea, but many keep supporting him through all of the above. So what would make them stop?

I hope you're right, but it's not looking good so far :/

Re: We're no longer attracting top talent: the brain drain killing American science

#500

Post by galangalalgol »

quantumink wrote: post #369
galangalalgol wrote: post #327

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The sad situation is that neither is stable. China could be the new hegemon, but they would have to make decisions leading to the creation of a domestic consumer middle class that is not directly or perhaps even indirectly dependent on the goodwill of the party. Not to mention it would make some ridiculously wealthy people less so. They will not do that. So we are going to have no hegemon. No deep safe sink to store…

I follow your line of thinking and mostly agree... however, would like to also point out that barring apocalyptic scenarios - there are always deep safe value sinks if you consider your needs from first principles. Consider for example having the capacities to produce your own energy (food and electricity/heat) - these are core expenditures for most people besides a place to live. All these are direct consequences of…

Yes on a personal level you are right, and that is a good idea.
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