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How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

japantimes.co.jp

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Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#491

Post by pegasus »

cbm-vic-20 wrote: post #468
dangus wrote: post #460

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think the places where American inefficiency is most visible is in construction, urban planning, and healthcare. America blows a significant amount of its money by having its citizens drive everywhere with no option to take a train, bus, bicycle, or low-speed e-scooter. Americans take a crazy percentage of their income and just dump it into the stagnant automotive industry. Americans blow between $5,000-10,000 a ye…

Regarding your last point, back when my political views were "evolving", I had thought about if, instead of handing foreigners diplomas and kicking them out of the country as fast as possible, we should do the opposite: have student visas require that the recipient stay in the US at least five years after graduation, and then fast-track them through the permanent residency -> citizenship pipeline. It made no sense to…

Those foreign students usually pay for the education they receive, they might not be willing to do so (or as much) if there are strings attached. Besides, I don't think any country should aim on brain draining any other country, that kind of selfishness will be counterproductive long-term. Who knows, might be what we're seeing right now (the US self-sabotaging). Karma's a bitch.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#492

Post by DrScientist »

gpt5 wrote: post #388
yanhangyhy wrote: post #367

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You’re not wrong to think that way. But now there’s less and less left for China to “copy,” and it’s hard to argue that many things aren’t being invented by China itself. Perhaps the real question is this: why is it that places that used to be technologically advanced no longer produce new, original inventions? Is it fear of China copying them? Did the U.S. decide not to develop a sixth-generation fighter jet because…

Can you clarify what are you talking about? The US has been developing 6th-gen fighter since the mid mid-2010s - not that I'd consider it as an important new original invention. What I would consider as the most impactful inventions of the last decade would be things like mRNA, Generative AI, and reusable rockets - all came from the US and the US is maintaining the lead in them.

> What I would consider as the most impactful inventions of the last decade would be things like mRNA, Generative AI, and reusable rockets - all came from the US and the US is maintaining the lead in them.

This so myopic. The covid mRNA vaccine that Pfizer made billions from was done by BionTech a company in Germany led by immigrant turks.

Sure some American's recently got the Nobel prize for the pseudouridine modification - and whiles that's enabling it's not sufficient - you also need LNPs and a whole bunch of other stuff to make it all work - some of which was invented in America and some of which wasn't.

The nature of international science is collaboration.

The danger the for the US right now is it's cutting itself off from one of the biggest sources of innovation right now - China.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#493

Post by kube-system »

literallywho wrote: post #368
monero-xmr wrote: post #279

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I would just be careful to discount the capitalist West. You’d have to be blind to ignore the massive overbuilding of property in China, which they are now demolishing. All of that wasted capital. Authoritarian regimes with controlled media always seem successful… until it doesn’t. Up until the USSR collapsed there were many prominent people in the West saying it was the superior system. The market test - meaning flo…

I swear I've been reading about overbuilding in China since, like, 2012. And I've definitely used it in arguments myself. Not only China hasn't collapsed, but it has improved massively since then, as far as I can tell.

The US also had a period of time in which their government directed large construction projects, and they too were particularly prosperous in the time afterwards.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#494

Post by soared »

dangus wrote: post #460
MrSkelter wrote: post #452

Earlier quoted context omitted.

[flagged]

I think the places where American inefficiency is most visible is in construction, urban planning, and healthcare. America blows a significant amount of its money by having its citizens drive everywhere with no option to take a train, bus, bicycle, or low-speed e-scooter. Americans take a crazy percentage of their income and just dump it into the stagnant automotive industry. Americans blow between $5,000-10,000 a ye…

Show me these magical cities where an extra $750/mo in rent lets you both move from the suburbs to downtown, and increase your sq footage!

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#495

Post by fullshark »

wewxjfq wrote: post #343
dluan wrote: post #214

It's wild to me that so many skeptical westerners who want to nitpick certain unproven technicalities, when the entire world only gets bits and pieces of the on the ground reality of China's progress, like the original Reuters article which was clearly fed information by insiders. You should be living in the world of "China has successfully developed EUV and equivalent litho supply chain" and basing your decision mak…

It's wild that every comment section about China these days must paint the picture of these rabid anti-Chinese Westerners who are saying that China is an eternal backwater, yet one never sees actual comments like this, and how all of Western media is pushing anti-China propaganda, when the submitted article is just a neutral bit.

It's an overcorrection for years of western arrogance being expressed in the past decade+. I think most people have woken up by now to the reality of Chinese manufacturing dominance and what that implies, at least those in power and journalists.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#496

Post by trillic »

pogue wrote: post #256
GolfPopper wrote: post #228

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> pursuing quarterly profits and forgetting to look up "Forgetting to look up" implies a desire or intent to do so. The United States - former leader of the collective West - made the choice decades ago to sacrifice everything on the altar of quarterly profits. All that remains are the consequences of that decision.

When did this whole quarterly profits thing start and what lead to it?

1910s Dodge v. Ford Motor Co.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#497

Post by Urahandystar »

mensetmanusman wrote: post #458
kaycey2022 wrote: post #405

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't see why copying is unnatural or even bad. Maybe within a single economy or a group of economies which share a common understanding and laws, chosing to discourage copying to incentivise other citizen innovators makes sense. But in the global context, between adversarial nations, or even countries that don't see each other as equal, it is absolutely foolish not to copy. Since everything is framed in terms of g…

Some copying creates a first mover disadvantage in game theory in regards to capital resource allocation. It requires second order thinking to understand, but it’s not super complicated.

Yes but thats not the copyers problem is it? Risk is inherent in all things the second order requires that you keep advancing by attracting resources.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#498

Post by SideburnsOfDoom »

Are these necessary "AI Chips", not just "Chips"?

If - hear me out - this whole LLM AI thing turns out be be overhyped, won't this capability be useful for a lot of other things , from consumer electronics to combat drones.

e.g. Useful in the growing Chinese EV sector. And lessening dependence on chips made in Taiwan seems strategic.

It seems broader than a bet on "AI" specifically. A more strategic move.

From the article, first paragraph:

> cutting-edge semiconductor chips that power artificial intelligence, smartphones and weapons central to Western military dominance.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#499

Post by quitit »

Alex2037 wrote: post #90
quitit wrote: post #83

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Which then goes on to be repurposed into weapons of war. Something to think about if considering the purchase of a DJI drone.

the attack drones being used in Ukraine are not DJI anymore. both sides produce extremely cheap, light, disposable drones en masse. also, consider that a $50 smartphone can drive an ICBM.

One function of R&D involves how to manufacture things cheaply, quickly + en masse.

Those efficiencies that started with consumer drones now serve drones used in war. DJI being used at the start of the war is the evidence of that.

Continuation of that investment in R&D will also lead to new technologies: such as quieter drones, drones that can carry more, go further, and be controlled through difficult to counter means.

It's blithely short sighted to think that the technology is already at its maximum, or that these concepts are disconnected from each other. It's a type of naive thinking that people on the internet do to rationalise a false sense of security.

Also: to address another set of comments in this thread - China aren't looking at EUV so they can break into the graphics cards market or lower the price of RAM. Absolute utter numpties.

Re: How China built its ‘Manhattan Project’ to rival the West in AI chips

#500

Post by maxsilver »

snapcaster wrote: post #471
yanhangyhy wrote: post #323

Domestically, we often put it this way: since it wasn’t made by God, we can definitely make it ourselves. It’s only a matter of time — if not this year, then next year; if we can’t do it next year, we’ll just keep going. This is how we approach everything. There is a small caveat, though. China was not actually that far behind in the semiconductor field in the past. The problem was that corruption and fraudulent proj…

I don't disagree with you on the conclusion, but man I just wish people stopped believing in fairy tales about countries like this. America does it too. Why are people so allergic to materialism? I'm not saying culture is irrelevant but saying china's success is due to "Chinese way of thinking" or america was dominant because of the "american dream" is an adult believing santa-tier take. Material conditions shape his…

> I'm not saying culture is irrelevant but saying china's success is due to "Chinese way of thinking" or america was dominant because of the "american dream" is an adult believing santa-tier take.

I don't know that it's a fairy tale. Certainly, it helps nations project more influence than they really have. But it's not nothing, commonly-shared philosophy is useful. It matters, because it differs, and that impacts things.

(as an American) America definitely does not share this philosophy. The idea that "Corruption and fraud can slow China’s progress, but they will not affect the final outcome." is not something most Americans would ever say about America as we struggle with mostly-unchecked corruption and fraud, and have zero enforcement over the consequences of such. It is absolutely effecting the final outcomes of the US, and in a massively negative way.

> Material conditions shape history

Sure, but not just material conditions. "Hope for the future" plays a bigger role than many people give it credit for.

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