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In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

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Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#491

Post by esalman »

xp84 wrote: post #429
Rebelgecko wrote: post #146

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The financials of childcare don't really make sense to me. YMMV depending on your situation, but childcare costs are basically equivalent to my wife's teacher salary. And because of our tax bracket, it'd actually be CHEAPER for her to quit her job and take care of 2 kids full time, vs getting paid teach like 20 kids. There's tradeoffs in terms of career progression, but it seems broken that there's a decent financial…

Seriously. There’s a reason all our kids’ preschool teachers never return from maternity leave. The pay isn’t enough to pay someone else to watch your baby while you work. And this school is already an expensive one and is a nonprofit so the money isn’t going to some Mr. Moneybags investor. The economics of childcare are broken.

All of them? A bunch of my son's daycare teachers had their own kids, even infants, attending the same daycare.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#492

Post by tuna74 »

ponector wrote: post #181
bparsons wrote: post #145

Earlier quoted context omitted.

This is the big reason other countries have free or cheap childcare. People who have kids want to continue earning money, and people who earn money want to have kids. It can be easily justified using only an economic productivity argument.

In which country there is a cheap childcare, especially if we are talking about children under 3? Also even if it is cheap, children can attend it few days a week, staying sick at home almost every week for a day or two. Not every employer can tolerate such worker.

My kids very rarely got sick in pre-school (1-5 years old) or in school. Make sure they sleep enough and you are usually good.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#493

Post by gfiorav »

crazygringo wrote: post #444
gfiorav wrote: post #394

Earlier quoted context omitted.

What could possibly be my source for such a claim? Who is funding studies on this topic? My source is my upbringing in Europe and my subsequent long-term residence in two other countries, which provided me with a unique perspective on people’s feelings and beliefs. My source is my diverse life experiences, during which I actively engaged with people from all walks of life as much as I could. I am not making any claim…

You're seriously saying that the majority of Europeans don't understand that social services come from the taxes they pay? That honestly sounds as plausible to me as saying the majority of Europeans thinkg 2+2=5. Forgive me if I have a hard time believing you. Because I can definitely tell you Americans understand where their government spending comes from, and I have a hard time believing that Europeans are somehow…

To be clear, I don’t believe it’s an “education” issue. I think it’s a “for too long removed from politics” problem.

For most Europeans, a tax is an unclear bill at the end of the month, leaving them feeling powerless to do anything about it.

One thing I learned from living in America is that people here are much more engaged in civic life and politics. The UK (which I also lived in) is perhaps the exception to this European rule.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#494

Post by petcat »

tomp wrote: post #273
petcat wrote: post #169

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Very few other countries have free childcare. In Europe I'm only aware of Slovenia and a couple others. Canada doesn't have anything close to the universal system that's in New Mexico.

Slovenia doesn’t have free healthcare, only subsidized. Source: https://www.gov.si/teme/znizano-placilo-vrtca/

Childcare, not healthcare. Like babysitting

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#495

Post by gfiorav »

crazygringo wrote: post #446
fragmede wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But the doctor isn't working for free, the nurse isn't working for free, the receptionist isn't working for free, the machines in the office weren't free, the rent on the office isn't free. Yes, theres no bill that arrives that you pay for directly out of pocket, but the system very much isn’t actually free.

Who on earth thinks the doctor is working for free, or the nurse, or anyone else...? This is the most strawman of strawmen I might ever have heard. By your logic, the word "free" should be banished from the English language, because literally nothing could ever be free. Except, for people who have common sense, "free" means you don't have to pay for the thing directly . In this case, your taxes get aggregated with ev…

This is where you’re being naive. I meant this in other parts of the thread: Americans are more connected to the outcome of taxes because the government doesn’t control every aspect of life.

For Europeans, while they understand the concept of taxes, the government’s vastness and involvement in everything make it a black box that they fund without having a say. They can just hope it’s being used effectively (although many believe it isn’t).

Most European elections revolve around sentimental signaling and rarely present concrete plans that explain practical solutions to problems.

Americans assume the rest of the world is on the same page, but that’s not the case IMO

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#496

Post by crazygringo »

fragmede wrote: post #447
crazygringo wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who on earth thinks the doctor is working for free, or the nurse, or anyone else...? This is the most strawman of strawmen I might ever have heard. By your logic, the word "free" should be banished from the English language, because literally nothing could ever be free. Except, for people who have common sense, "free" means you don't have to pay for the thing directly . In this case, your taxes get aggregated with ev…

They're not? If you're the type of person to pay taxes, that money gets used to pay the teachers. The pizza restaurant that offers free delivery - that's also not free. They use the money from the customer buying pizza to pay the delivery driver. If you're in a country that allows businesses to get away with that, that might explain your confusion, but not all countries, eg Germany, allow businesses to get away with…

I'm having a hard time taking this seriously.

Again, by your logic, nothing provided by someone else could ever be free. Right?

So then what exactly is the point of having the word?

So let's get rid of the word. Now, we need a word to mean things you don't pay for directly, since that's a very useful and practical concept when it comes to your personal budget. What do you think of the word... I'm just brainstorming here... "free"?

Am I missing something here?

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#497

Post by crazygringo »

gfiorav wrote: post #493
crazygringo wrote: post #444

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You're seriously saying that the majority of Europeans don't understand that social services come from the taxes they pay? That honestly sounds as plausible to me as saying the majority of Europeans thinkg 2+2=5. Forgive me if I have a hard time believing you. Because I can definitely tell you Americans understand where their government spending comes from, and I have a hard time believing that Europeans are somehow…

To be clear, I don’t believe it’s an “education” issue. I think it’s a “for too long removed from politics” problem. For most Europeans, a tax is an unclear bill at the end of the month, leaving them feeling powerless to do anything about it. One thing I learned from living in America is that people here are much more engaged in civic life and politics. The UK (which I also lived in) is perhaps the exception to this…

You don't need to be involved in politics to understand that government spending comes from taxes.

I'm American but have spent a lot of time in Europe -- France, Spain, and Germany mostly. I have seen nothing to indicate that Europeans are ignorant of where government spending comes from. They seem just as smart as anyone else.

And national elections in Europe also seem like large news events, even if the campaign season is (thankfully) a whole lot shorter.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#498

Post by tomp »

petcat wrote: post #494
tomp wrote: post #273

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Slovenia doesn’t have free healthcare, only subsidized. Source: https://www.gov.si/teme/znizano-placilo-vrtca/

Childcare, not healthcare. Like babysitting

Sorry typo. I meant childcare, link mentions childcare.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#499

Post by crazygringo »

gfiorav wrote: post #495
crazygringo wrote: post #446

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Who on earth thinks the doctor is working for free, or the nurse, or anyone else...? This is the most strawman of strawmen I might ever have heard. By your logic, the word "free" should be banished from the English language, because literally nothing could ever be free. Except, for people who have common sense, "free" means you don't have to pay for the thing directly . In this case, your taxes get aggregated with ev…

This is where you’re being naive. I meant this in other parts of the thread: Americans are more connected to the outcome of taxes because the government doesn’t control every aspect of life. For Europeans, while they understand the concept of taxes, the government’s vastness and involvement in everything make it a black box that they fund without having a say. They can just hope it’s being used effectively (although…

I'm sorry, but you're the one who seems naive here. European governments "control every aspect of life"? What are you on about? Europe isn't Soviet communism, or a dictatorship under Mussolini.

You're taking a bizarrely extreme ideological position that does not match reality. Elections in countries like France and Germany are vibrant and heavily contested and citizens are greatly interested and involved.

Whether there's more sentimental signaling than you'd like, or too few concrete plans -- that's true across the world, and in the US.

But that has nothing to do with whether it makes sense to call government services provided at no direct cost "free".

You've made it clear you want to redefine language to suit your kind of right-wing ideology, where you seem shockingly judgmental and dismissive of your fellow citizens. No thanks.

Re: In a U.S. First, New Mexico Opens Doors to Free Child Care for All

#500

Post by Aurornis »

runako wrote: post #176
Aurornis wrote: post #98

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Don't forget the "1% of the recipients are fraudulent It’s complicated. Having 1% fraudulent recipients despite having very thorough and deep vetting processes should be a clue that fraud is a big problem. The fallacy is assuming that the fraud rate would stay the same if we removed the checks. It would not. The 1% fraud rate is only what gets through the current checks. The more you remove the checks, the higher t…

There's a couple of fallacies embedded here. For example, that there is a thorough and deep vetting process that is also impartial (vs being invested in denying benefits). Also the assumption that an application that is denied == fraud. Programs are incredibly complex, and requirements are a moving target. I can imagine someone going to renew based on their understanding of the program, and inadvertently being flagge…

> Also the assumption that an application that is denied == fraud.

That’s not how fraud is defined. The fraud rates are calculated from doing in-depth audits of a sampling of applicants.

It’s not the rate of rejections. That’s an assumption you embedded and tried to project on to others.

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