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The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

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Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#491
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ridiculous. I use it daily and get meaningful, quality results. Learn to use the tools.

Learn to work on interesting problems? If the problem you are working on is novel and hard, the AI will stumble. Generalizing your experience to everyone else's betrays a lack of imagination.

Dude. We don't all work for NASA. Most day to day problems aren't novel. Most jobs aren't novel. Most jobs can't keep a variety of sometimes useful experts on hand. I do my job and I go home and do my hobbies. Anything I can use at work to keep friction down and productivity up is extremely valuable.

Example prompt (paraphrasing and dumbed down, but not a ton): Some users across the country can't get to some fileshares. I know networking, but I'm not on the networking team so I don't have full access to switch, router, and firewall logs/configurations. It looks kind of random, but there must be a root cause, let's find it.

I can't use Python(security team says so) and I don't have access to a Linux box that's joined to the domain and has access the shares.

We are on a Windows domain controller. Write me a PowerShell 5.1 compatible script to be run remotely on devices. Use AD Sites and Services to find groups of random workstations and users at each office and tries to connect to all shares at each other site. Show me progress in the terminal and output an Excel file and Dot file that clearly illustrates successful and failed connections.

---

And it works. Ok, I can see the issue is from certain sites that use x AND y VPN ipsec tunnels to get to particular cloud resources. I give this info to networking and they fix it right away. Problem resolved in less than an hour.

First of all, a couple years ago, I wouldn't have been able to justify writing something like this while an outage is occuring. Could I do it myself? Sure, but I'm going to have to look up the specifics of syntax and certain commands and modules. I don't write PowerShell for a living or fun, but I do need to use it. I am familiar and know how to write it. But I sure as fuck couldn't sit down and spend an hour or two screwing around working on building a goddamn Dot file generator. Yes, years ago I had a whole pile of little utility modules I could use. But that's a far cry from what I can do now to fit the exact situation while I do other things like pick up the phone, message coworkers, etc.

Secondly, rather than building little custom tools to hook together as I need, I can just ask for the whole thing. I don't need to save any of that stuff anymore and re-figure out what CheckADFSConns(v2).PS1 that I wrote 8 months ago does and how to use it. "Oh, that's not the one, what the did I name that? Where did I put it?"

I work in an environment that is decades old, the company is over 100 years old, I didn't build any of it myself, is not a tech company, and has tons of tech debt and weird shit. AI is insanely useful. For any given problem, there are dozens of different rabbit holes I could go down because of decades of complete system overhaul changes. Today, I can toss a variety of logs at AI and if nothing else, get a sense of direction of why a handful of PCs are rejecting some web certificates. (Combination of a new security policy and their times mismatching the domain controller, because it was new, and NTP wasn't configured properly. I wasn't even looking for timestamps, but it noticed event offsets and pointed it out).

I feel like this community isn't very familiar with what that's like. We aren't all working on self driving cars or whatever seems hard at a brand new company with new everything and no budget. Some of us need to keep the systems running that help people to make actual things. These environments are far from pristine and are held together by underpaid and underappreciated normies through sheer willpower.

Is this kind of work breaking technical frontiers? No. But it's complicated, difficult, and unpredictable. Is it novel? The problems are, sometimes.

Generalizing your experience to everyone else's betrays your lack of self-awareness, sir.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#492

Having seen LLMs so many times produce coherent, sensible and valid chains of reasoning to diagnose issues and bugs in software I work on, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking. Consciousness or self awareness is of course a different question, and ones whose answer seems less clear right now. Knee jerk dismissing the evidence in front of your eyes because you find it unbelievable that we c…

Having seen photocopiers so many times produce coherent, sensible, and valid chains of words on a page, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking.

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Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#493
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Ridiculous. I use it daily and get meaningful, quality results. Learn to use the tools.

Learn to work on interesting problems? If the problem you are working on is novel and hard, the AI will stumble. Generalizing your experience to everyone else's betrays a lack of imagination.

Even most humans will stumble on hard problems, that is the reason they are hard in the first place

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#494
post #482
post #464

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Different PoV: You have a local bug and ask the digital hive mind for a solution, but someone already solved the issue and their solution was incorporated... LLMs are just very effficient at compressing billions of solutions into a few GB. Try to ask something no one ever came up with a solution so far.

This argument comes up often but can be easily dismissed. Make up a language and explain it to the LLM like you would to a person. Tell it to only use that language now to communicate. Even earlier AI was really good at this. You will probably move the goal posts and say that this is just pattern recognition, but it still fits nicely within your request for something that no one ever came up with.

I haven't tried in a while but at least previously you could completely flummox Gemini by asking it to come up with some plausible English words with no real known meaning; it just kept giving me rare and funny-sounding actual words and then eventually told me the task is impossible.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#495
post #455
post #414

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Learn to work on interesting problems? If the problem you are working on is novel and hard, the AI will stumble. Generalizing your experience to everyone else's betrays a lack of imagination.

> Generalizing your experience to everyone else's betrays a lack of imagination. One guy is generalizing from "they don't work for me" to "they don't work for anyone." The other one is saying "they do work for me, therefore they do work for some people." Note that the second of these is a logically valid generalization. Note also that it agrees with folks such as Tim Gowers, who work on novel and hard problems.

No, that's decidedly not what is happening here.

One is saying "I've seen an LLM spectacularly fail at basic reasoning enough times to know that LLMs don't have a general ability to think" (but they can sometimes reproduce the appearance of doing so).

The other is trying to generalize "I've seen LLMs produce convincing thought processes therefore LLMs have the general ability to think" (and not just occasionally reproduce the appearance of doing so).

And indeed, only one of these is a valid generalization.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

They are only meaningful and quality if you don’t know what you’re doing. But please do show some of this meaningful and quality work so I can be proven wrong.

Yes, please this is literally what I want to see. I have yet to see an example where an LLM did anything that was sufficiently difficult. Not saying they can't be useful, but for anything past the basics they are really all over the place. And if we were paying anywhere near the true costs it wouldn't be even worth trying.

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Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#497

Having seen LLMs so many times produce coherent, sensible and valid chains of reasoning to diagnose issues and bugs in software I work on, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking. Consciousness or self awareness is of course a different question, and ones whose answer seems less clear right now. Knee jerk dismissing the evidence in front of your eyes because you find it unbelievable that we c…

Having seen parrots so many times produce coherent, sensible, and valid chains of sounds and words, I am at this point in absolutely no doubt that they are thinking.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#498
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having seen LLMs so many times produce incoherent, nonsensical and invalid chains of reasoning... LLMs are little more than RNGs. They are the tea leaves and you read whatever you want into them.

Ridiculous. I use it daily and get meaningful, quality results. Learn to use the tools.

[deleted]

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#499
post #377

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Having seen LLMs so many times produce incoherent, nonsensical and invalid chains of reasoning... LLMs are little more than RNGs. They are the tea leaves and you read whatever you want into them.

Ridiculous. I use it daily and get meaningful, quality results. Learn to use the tools.

> Learn to use the tools.

Thing is, you wouldn't need to learn to use the tools if the tool was able to think. A thinking entity is able to adapt to other parties who lack learnings. This confirms that LLMs are little more than fancy RNGs.

> I use it daily and get meaningful, quality results.

That's what the tea leaf readers say too, funnily enough.

Re: The Case That A.I. Is Thinking

#500
post #436

I think the medium where information transformation happened was for many the only artificial line between what they called processing and what they called thinking. The caveat for others being that thinking is what you do with active awareness, and intuition is what you do otherwise. That caveat to me is the useful distinction still to ponder. My point of contention with equivalences to Human thinking still at this…

The problem is that we use the same words for different things, which I think is risky. We often draw parallels simply because we use terms like “thinking,” “reasoning,” or “memory.”

Most of these comparisons focus on problem-solving or pattern recognition, but humans are capable of much more than that.

What the author left out is that there are many well-known voices in neuroscience who hold completely different views from the one that was cited.

I suppose we’ll have to wait and see what turns out to be true.

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