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Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

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Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#491

Post by tehnub »

Before uv, I was fairly happy with pyenv + venv + pip for development and pipx for running "tools". IMO, the specific things uv improves upon are:

  - Faster dependency resolution. In fact, everything uv does is extremely fast.
  - Better ergonomics in a dozen ways (`uv run` instead of activating the virtual env, support for script metadata to run scripts with dependencies, uv add to modify the pyproject.toml (that it created for you), etc.)
  - Stack of one tool instead of four+
  - Easier Python installation (although I usually use both pyenv and uv on my machine)

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#493

Post by temporallobe »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #149

I gotta say, I feel pretty vindicated after hearing for years how Python’s tooling was just fine and you should just use virtualenv with pip and how JS must be worse, that when Python devs finally get a taste of npm/cargo/bundler in their ecosystem, they freaking love it. Because yes, npm has its issues but lock files and consistent installs are amazing

Yep, working with bundler and npm for a decade plus has made me appreciate these tools more than you can know. I had just recently moved to Python for a project and was delighted to learn that Python had something similar, and indeed uv is more than just a package manager like bundler. It’s like bundler + rvenv/rvm.

And inspired by uv, we now have rv for RoR!

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#494

Post by handystudio »

rtpg wrote: post #255
mk89 wrote: post #239

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I have used pip freeze > requirements.txt pip install -r requirements.txt Way before "official" lockfile existed. Your requirements.txt becomes a lockfile, as long as you accept to not use ranges. Having this in a single tool etc why not, but I don't understand this hype, when it was basically already there.

As a “pip is mostly fine” person, we would direct the result to a new lock file, so you could still have your direct does and then pin transitives and update Pips solver could still cause problems in general on changes. UV having a better solver is nice. Being fast is also nice. Mainly tho it feeling like it is a tool that is maintained and can be improved upon without ripping one’s hair out is a godsend.

Totally agree, UV's solver speed is exciting

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#495

Post by prpl »

gostsamo wrote: post #79
dekhn wrote: post #58

I hadn't paid any attention to rust before uv, but since starting to use uv, I've switched a lot of my performance-sensitive code dev to rust (with interfaces to python). These sorts of improvements really do improve my quality of life significantly. My hope is that conda goes away completely. I run an ML cluster and we have multi-gigabyte conda directories and researchers who can't reproduce anything because just to…

As far as I get it, conda is still around because uv is focused on python while conda handles things written in other languages. Unless uv gets much more universal than expected, conda is here to stay.

conda (and its derivatives that are also “conda” now), and conda-forge specifically, are the best ways to install things that will work across operating systems, architectures, and languages - without having to resort to compiling everything.

Want to make sure a software stack works well on a Cray with MPI+cuda+MKL, macOS, and ARM linux, with both C++ and Python libraries? It’s possible with conda-forge.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#496

Post by tehnub »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #247
caconym_ wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing I dread more within the general context of software development, broadly , than trying to run other people's Python projects. Nothing. It's shocking that it has been so bad for so long.

Never underestimate cultural momentum I guess. NBA players shot long 2 pointers for decades before people realized 3 > 2. Doctors refused to wash their hands before doing procedures. There’s so many things that seem obvious in retrospect but took a long time to become accepted

>NBA players shot long 2 pointers for decades before people realized 3 > 2

And the game is worse for it :')

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#497

Post by ggm »

verdverm wrote: post #11

I'd put type annotations and GIL removal above UV without a second thought. UV is still young and I hit some of those growing pains. While it is very nice, I'm not going to put it up there with sliced bread, it's just another package manager among many

> it's just another package manager among many

It's the python version of fink vs macports vs homebrew. Or apt vs deb. or pkgsrc vs ports.

But I don't think "its just another" gets the value proposition here. It's significantly simpler to deploy in practice for people like me, writing ad hoc scripts and running git downloaded scripts and codelets.

Yes, virtualenv and pip existed. No, they turned out to be a lot more fiddly to run in practice than UV.

That UV is rust is funny, but not in a terrible way. The llvm compiler toolchain is written in C but compiles other languages. Using one language to do things for another language isn't such a terrible outcome.

I hope UV supplants the others. Not to disrespect their authors, but UV is better for end users. If its worse for package maintainers I think the UV authors should be told.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#498

Post by ggm »

This blog very strongly echoes my own experiental sense of the field of play.

It's just simpler to use, and better overall. It's reduced friction significantly.

I think the Python community should put it as a first preference vehicle, and be respectful to the prior arts, and their developers, but not insist they have primacy.

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#499

Post by tehnub »

tomaskafka wrote: post #342
caconym_ wrote: post #227

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There is nothing I dread more within the general context of software development, broadly , than trying to run other people's Python projects. Nothing. It's shocking that it has been so bad for so long.

So many times I have come onto a library or tool that would fix my problem, and then realized “oh crap, it’s in Python, I don’t want to spend few hours building a brittle environment for it only for that env to break next time I need to use it” - and went to look for a worse solution in better language.

How come it's easier if the tool is in another language? What are the technical (or cultural) reasons? Do most C programs use static linking, or just not have deps?

Re: Uv is the best thing to happen to the Python ecosystem in a decade

#500

Post by ThinkBeat »

hardwaregeek wrote: post #149

I gotta say, I feel pretty vindicated after hearing for years how Python’s tooling was just fine and you should just use virtualenv with pip and how JS must be worse, that when Python devs finally get a taste of npm/cargo/bundler in their ecosystem, they freaking love it. Because yes, npm has its issues but lock files and consistent installs are amazing

there are severe problems with npm as well. It is not a model I hope is replicated.
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