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Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

theguardian.com

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Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#491

Post by ratorx »

jacquesm wrote: post #470
kqr wrote: post #453

Earlier quoted context omitted.

In safety-critical systems, we distinguish between accidents (actual loss, e.g. lives, equipment, etc.) and hazardous states . The equation is hazardous state + environmental conditions = accident Since we can only control the system, and not its environment, we focus on preventing hazardous states, rather than accidents. If we can keep the system out of all hazardous states, we also avoid accidents. (Trying to preve…

If you haven't done so: please write a book. Aim it towards software professionals in non-regulated industries. I promise to buy 50 to give to all of my software developing colleagues. As for 'N', for turboprops it is 45, for jets it is 30.

Google’s SRE STPA starts with a similar model. I haven’t read the external document, but my team went through this process internally and we considered the hazardous states and environmental triggers.

https://sre.google/stpa/teaching

Disclaimer: currently employed by Google, this message is not sponsored.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#492

Post by rjh29 »

mmaunder wrote: post #315
AceyMan wrote: post #68

Under FAA rules this was a screwup. [edit: see my own reply] (However, the rules are subtle, so they can be partially forgiven.) However, I'm not only a dispatcher but also a philosophy BA, so I've found a good way to explain it. Your reserve fuel (the "extra" fuel over what the actual flight burn) can of course be used (hello, that's what it's there for) but—and here's the rub—you can never plan on using it. That is…

"Under FAA rules this was a screwup." Not necessarily. And I get that you've caveated yourself with an edit and a reply etc, but lets assume that you're not hedging for the moment. They carried required reserves on departure. Multiple approaches thwarted by extreme unforseen weather. They declared Mayday Fuel, which is mandatory under EASA regulations, when reserve fuel use became unnavoidable. They diverted to the n…

Some commenters are claiming the flight should have never taken off and that the weather situation was entirely predictable. What's your take on that?

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#493

Post by sans_souse »

kqr wrote: post #484
jacquesm wrote: post #470

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you haven't done so: please write a book. Aim it towards software professionals in non-regulated industries. I promise to buy 50 to give to all of my software developing colleagues. As for 'N', for turboprops it is 45, for jets it is 30.

I want to write more about this, but it has been a really difficult subject to structure. I gave up halfway through this article, for example, and never published it – I didn't even get around to editing it, so it's mostly bad stream of consciousness stuff: https://entropicthoughts.com/root-cause-analysis-youre-doing... I intend to come back to it some day, but I do not think that day is today.

Just started reading the linked text after reading your comment and I agree, this is high quality education, and enjoyable. It's an art, really. Thank you for sharing your work and please keep it up.

Just a thought I had while reading your introduction: this is applicable even to running a successful business model. I'm honestly having trouble even putting it into words, but you have my analytical mind going now at a very late hour... Thanks!

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#494

Post by rjh29 »

trapexit wrote: post #489
grapesodaaaaa wrote: post #425

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Clearly you have thought a lot about carbon reduction, so I have a question for you. Is a plug in hybrid or EV less polluting if you don’t have rooftop solar? edit: I think I know the general answer, but I’m splitting hairs comparing a replacement car for an ICE vehicle that I have.

You don't need your own rooftop solar. You can time your charges for when power is cheap (i.e. renewables are highly represented in the grid mix). In many locations you can get an electricity tariff that changes by time of day, either fixed times of day or nearly real-time to track the current wholesale price. Here in Scotland, we have an EV electricity tariff that give us low rates between 00:30 - 05:30 while the wi…

Octopus Energy in the UK. Sometimes you can get paid to take power off the grid. Unfortunately batteries are too expensive to make really good use of it.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#495

Post by Reason077 »

tamcap wrote: post #105
dTal wrote: post #85

Earlier quoted context omitted.

You get that energy back on descent, no?

Not really. While you have a large potential energy buildup at a higher altitude, you cannot "bank it" / "save it" on descent. There is no way to store it in batteries or convert it back into fuel. One of the challenges of aeronautics is the efficient disposition of the potential energy without converting it all into kinetic energy (ie speed) so that the landing happens at an optimally low speed - thus giving you a c…

> "While you have a large potential energy buildup at a higher altitude, you cannot "bank it" / "save it" on descent. There is no way to store it in batteries or convert it back into fuel."

An electric fan aircraft absolutely can recharge it's batteries on descent. The fans simply act as turbines, creating drag to slow the aircraft and electricity to charge the batteries. Large commercial airliners already have a small turbine that works this way, the Ram Air Turbine (RAT) which is used to generate electrical power in emergencies.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#496

Post by distances »

whycome wrote: post #459
School-Cotton wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Why do people keep insisting on pasting LLM output to HN when every time it happens, it gets downvoted to oblivion? The community clearly doesn't want it. If we wanted to know a computer program's opinion about something, we could ask it ourselves.

I was using it to question that exact stated fuel consumption number without a citation. For hard data (like fuel consumption) getting a value from an LLM isn’t absurd.

If not absurd, it's very poor form. You should never use LLM as input for a discussion, nobody wants to hear that. Use it to search for authoritative sources.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#498

Post by mnw21cam »

devilbunny wrote: post #351
mnw21cam wrote: post #344

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Turbofans are by your own definition jet engines. It's just that the bypass air is much larger.

I think you meant turboprop there, but the distinction I notice is that one has all propulsive airflow inside the nacelle, and one does not.

Agh. No, I meant turbofan, but I misread your post and actually completely agree with you - turboprobs are not jet engines.

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#499

Post by lyu07282 »

ionwake wrote: post #355

Story time, from my past. Waiting on full flight in Europe, good airport, for take off. Pilot says over speaker : " We are delayed becuase FUEL guy got UPSET on tarmac and has QUIT. We know need someone ELSE to fill the plane with FUEL. " Said in a COMPLETELY nonchalant voice. Immediately I get concerned, try not to think what cause a FUEL TECH to QUIT regarding THIS PLANE and fuel issue. Just close my eyes, relax. 2…

I imagine everyone involved know that they are doing dangerous things, not taking a drop more fuel than is legally required for profit, knowing that none of that is going to change unless there is a major accident... They keep[1] landing these planes with X minutes of fuel left, but it doesn't do anything, until some plane falls from the sky with 0 minutes of fuel left then everyone knew all along and the rules are changed and nobody is held accountable.

[1] https://www.bbc.com/news/world-europe-19267153

Re: Ryanair flight landed at Manchester airport with six minutes of fuel left

#500

Post by ionwake »

PunchyHamster wrote: post #396
ionwake wrote: post #355

Story time, from my past. Waiting on full flight in Europe, good airport, for take off. Pilot says over speaker : " We are delayed becuase FUEL guy got UPSET on tarmac and has QUIT. We know need someone ELSE to fill the plane with FUEL. " Said in a COMPLETELY nonchalant voice. Immediately I get concerned, try not to think what cause a FUEL TECH to QUIT regarding THIS PLANE and fuel issue. Just close my eyes, relax. 2…

lacking fuel in plane that has not started flying isn't exactly something that should stress anyone and most definitely non issue

You missed the point of the story, the issue was not lack of fuel, it was a crew member quitting because of a fuel issue, most likely a misunderstanding.

Fuel misunderstandings have resulted in numerous serious incidents, try googling it bro

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