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Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

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Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#491

Post by bluecalm »

tomschwiha wrote: post #414
bluecalm wrote: post #399

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Just because it made 200k last few years doesn't mean it will continue to make that much. That is especially true in case of small companies.

Keep in mind there are two methods for taxation: the simplified earnings value method (13.75 factor) or the actual unrealized profit of the business. If you believe your company will not be profitable in the future because you’re moving away, you could wind it down — but you’d still end up paying the same taxes on the unrealized gain.

Why does it matter if I believe if my company is going to be profitable or not? I have no idea what happens. It may be more profitable, it might be less profitable, it might go bankrupt. It's impossible to predict. This is especially true for small companies because outcome depends on what the founder does in the future. Taxing future efforts which are going to be outside of the country is just ridiculous.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#492

Post by bluecalm »

carlosjobim wrote: post #448
bluecalm wrote: post #373

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Because different market participants have different views, risk tolerance and needs. The market argument only works for very high liquidity public stocks. Even then it's unlikely Musk or Zuckerberg can sell their equity at the price of the day. It completely fails for smaller businesses.

The monetary (note: monetary) value of anything and everything is determined by when the minimum value which a seller accepts to sell it for is equal to the maximum value a buyer accepts to buy it for. If you by some hacker magic know of any way to circumvent this fundamental logic, then you will become the richest man in history within less than a year, since you will then buy for less than anybody is willing to sel…

Yes but it assumes the whole thing. Just because someone is willing to buy a chunk for X doesn't mean there are enough buyers for all chunks at this price.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#493

Post by procaryote »

jmyeet wrote: post #307
procaryote wrote: post #200

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If "businesses will leave" was propaganda, you wouldn't need an exit tax, would you? If there is an exit tax because companies would leave otherwise, why would someone rational start a new company in the country rather than leave first?

Governments have extraordinary powers to bring individuals and corporations to heel if necessary. Governments can: - Charge exit taxes on people who "leave". As someone else pointed out, the US already does this with citizens who renounce citizenship (and it applies to long term permanent residents too); - A lot of assets simply can't leave. Physical assets, land, etc; - Assets and corporations can be nationalized; -…

Oh, so you didn't mean "businesses will leave [is] propaganda" as in

  "it's not true"
but as in

  "the state has all the power it needs to practically prohibit that, if they were just more open to autocracy"
I can imagine other problems with that, but it's less worthwhile to discuss

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#495

Post by weinzierl »

MaKey wrote: post #421
weinzierl wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of confidence in future economic improvement. A place where I could blend in which rules out the kind of obvious and otherwise excellent choices in Asia.

> Lack of confidence in future economic improvement. Germany is still the 3rd biggest economy worldwide. If you want to stay in Europe (as per your other comment) and future economic improvement is your biggest concern, I don't see a benefit in moving anywhere else.

"still" is the keyword. No intention to walk into disaster with eyes wide open.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#496

Post by StopDisinfo910 »

graemep wrote: post #281
jacquesm wrote: post #246

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> this is a topic where LLMs can be helpful. That's probably the very last spot where you want to use an LLM, especially not in Germany. One single mistake can cost you a fortune, and you won't be able to spot the mistake because you're not an expert. LLMs could be used to prime you for conversations with an expert (but be prepared to be corrected on points of law and fact) but they are no substitute. Corporate law i…

I would say not with tax law anywhere. It is very complex and has all sorts of interactions between things - e.g. double tax treaties. That said, a lot more people would probably use complex constructs if they were not so expensive to set up because of the advice needed. I just do not think LLMs help.

RAG are quite good with tax codes. That’s not particularly surprising you have documents telling you exactly what can be done and what is hard is knowing everything inside and putting everything together. That’s pretty much exactly in the sweet spot for LLM queries.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#497

Post by ExoticPearTree »

trallnag wrote: post #319
cpursley wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Don’t forget the energy suicide Germany has committed. Cheap energy was the backbone of Germanys rich industrial economy, and that rug has been (allowed and even encouraged) to be pulled by none other than the country now offering them a “very good price” on LNG…

Did you miss the Russo-Ukrainian war? Or are you suggesting that we (Europeans) should have continued pumping cash into Russia for a bunch of gas?

> Or are you suggesting that we (Europeans) should have continued pumping cash into Russia for a bunch of gas?

Unpopular opinion these days, but yes. A government's duty is first and foremost to its citizens. Anyone else comes last.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#498

Post by ExoticPearTree »

cpursley wrote: post #463
trallnag wrote: post #319

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Did you miss the Russo-Ukrainian war? Or are you suggesting that we (Europeans) should have continued pumping cash into Russia for a bunch of gas?

You still are, and more than you've sent to help Ukraine. I was mostly talking nuclear power shutdowns btw. Meanwhile, vital German heavy industry has already started shutting down.

> I was mostly talking nuclear power shutdowns btw.

There is some confusion here: the issue is not necessarily about pure electrical power alone. You need oil and oil based products for most of the things (plastics, fabrics etc.).

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#499

Post by ExoticPearTree »

MaKey wrote: post #421
weinzierl wrote: post #315

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Lack of confidence in future economic improvement. A place where I could blend in which rules out the kind of obvious and otherwise excellent choices in Asia.

> Lack of confidence in future economic improvement. Germany is still the 3rd biggest economy worldwide. If you want to stay in Europe (as per your other comment) and future economic improvement is your biggest concern, I don't see a benefit in moving anywhere else.

Europe currently runs on inertia. The EC is killing pretty much everything with over-regulation.

We don't have AI in Europe (don't get me started about Mistral) but we have AI regulation.

Re: Exit Tax: Leave Germany before your business gets big

#500

Post by carlosjobim »

bluecalm wrote: post #492
carlosjobim wrote: post #448

Earlier quoted context omitted.

The monetary (note: monetary) value of anything and everything is determined by when the minimum value which a seller accepts to sell it for is equal to the maximum value a buyer accepts to buy it for. If you by some hacker magic know of any way to circumvent this fundamental logic, then you will become the richest man in history within less than a year, since you will then buy for less than anybody is willing to sel…

Yes but it assumes the whole thing. Just because someone is willing to buy a chunk for X doesn't mean there are enough buyers for all chunks at this price.

How can you only see one side of the transaction? Just because somebody is willing to sell a chunk for X doesn't mean there are enough sellers for all chunks at this price.

The agreed price for the last executed sale is the de facto value of anything traded. This has been a fact for hundreds of thousands of years by now.

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