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Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

bbc.com

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Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#491

Post by kelnos »

nozzlegear wrote: post #181
efitz wrote: post #164

It is trivial today to get whatever level of fluoride is recommended for dental health, via toothpaste. So there is no compelling need to fluoridate as there exist viable alternatives to achieve the same that fluoridation is for any other purpose than dental health. In the USA, dental care is not covered by public insurance, and is an optional add-on to insurance through one’s employer. So without addressing at all w…

I think one thing you're not considering (especially when you say we should vote with our feet) is poverty. It’s true that fluoride toothpaste is widely available, but for people in poverty, of which there are millions in our country, basic hygiene items like toothpaste and a toothbrush aren’t guaranteed. Neither is it guaranteed that everyone has a perfect daily brushing habit like the dentist tells us; there are pe…

If you're not brushing your teeth, periodontitis will get you; the resulting bone decay will cause your teeth will fall out. But sure, great, the water was fluoridated, so I guess it's nice that those now-missing teeth are free of caries?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#492

Post by ath3nd »

ekianjo wrote: post #479
estebank wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge difference between "no longer as necessary" and "let's ban it".

You can add fluoride in your own water if you want to. Nobody is preventing your own freedom to drink fluoride.

Nobody's preventing you from going and finding your own water source either. The government is too much of a nanny state for putting flouride in water for public health, but it's just fine for providing water to you in the first place?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#493

Post by lazyasciiart »

aikinai wrote: post #441
hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

This started out as an interesting and fair take until “…enough to supplant it”. Freedom from the government is the original vision and one of the core principles of America assuming that anybody that wants smaller government just wants to supplant it is a massive misunderstanding of most Americans today and certainly the founding principles.

No, it’s very accurate about republicans today. “Supplant” might be the wrong word: traditionally the saying is “drown it in a bathtub”.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#494

Post by lazyasciiart »

kleiba wrote: post #488
Xelynega wrote: post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I think you missed the point of "positive" versus "negative" freedoms. They have more of one, less of the other.

Sorry if you read my post as snarky - I don't think I missed that point, I meant the question at the end more as food for thought. The OP contrasts adding fluroide to water vs. not adding fluoride to water and brings up the freedom question. I find that very interesting. But he omits that there's also the variant I sketched, namely that fluoride could still be made available to the population, but not through water.…

America has that too so it’s irrelevant to the question?

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#495

Post by quikoa »

ekianjo wrote: post #479
estebank wrote: post #390

Earlier quoted context omitted.

There's a huge difference between "no longer as necessary" and "let's ban it".

You can add fluoride in your own water if you want to. Nobody is preventing your own freedom to drink fluoride.

Defaults matter. Most people won't care or know about the change.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#496

Post by karparov »

ghuroo1 wrote: post #405
attila-lendvai wrote: post #380

Earlier quoted context omitted.

reality check: europe never had fluoride in the water. still looking for the dental crisis.

most people’s teeth in europe do not look great.. specially when compared to north americans. from my experience, only people who are serious about their mouth health and go to the dentist at least twice a year, seem to have healthy and good looking teeth.

Twice a year? That's only recommended by dentists in north america because most insurances cover it because of lobby pressure. Every 1-2 years fully suffices, depending on your risk profile (smoker, genetics, ...). That's what countries where the insurrance doesn't have skin in the game recommend.

And the average european has much better tooth health than the average u.s. citizen, in my experience.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#497

Post by throwaway519 »

concordDance wrote: post #449
hayst4ck wrote: post #347

Putting fluoride in water promotes freedom. That sounds crazy, but let me justify it. If you are poor you can't go anywhere or buy anything. You're not free if you're poor. If you are sick, you may be confined to a hospital bed or not feel good enough to do anything. If you are sick you're not free. Putting fluoride in water reduces dental costs and incidence of cavities and therefore tooth infections, particularly a…

The UK government is really big on doing things for our own good, but they don't seem to do much water flouridation. Which I think is some evidence that it's not a clearcut health benefit.

Exactly the opposite.

https://www.gov.uk/government/publications/health-and-care-b...

> We believe that water fluoridation is the single most effective public health measure there is for reducing oral health inequalities and tooth decay rates, especially amongst children. We welcome these proposals and believe they represent an opportunity to take a big step forward in not only improving this generation’s oral health, but those for decades to come.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#498

Post by keiferski »

jvm___ wrote: post #465
kvdveer wrote: post #455

Earlier quoted context omitted.

"freedom from", you will not be given a prevention from some horrible disease. You can buy it if you can afford it, but a significant portion of the population can't, and some of them will not be able to enjoy life because of it. "freedom to", a prevention will be provided. You can always decide to take alternatives, if you can afford it. A significant portion of the population can't. They will be able to enjoy life.…

How free a country is can be determined by this question. Would you choose to be a randomly chosen citizen? You could be anyone in that country with all the rights, privileges - or lack thereof - that that random person has. I think I'd rather be a random Canadian with healthcare and education than a random American. It's an interesting thought experiment.

This is an actual thought experiment by John Rawls: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Original_position

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#499

Post by kelnos »

bruckie wrote: post #101
timeon wrote: post #76

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> 20% tips Is this real?

Yes, it's pretty common. It's also common for businesses where customers tip to underpay their employees on the expectation that they'll make it up with tips. It's legal to do this in many jurisdictions. As an American, I wish we didn't do this, but it's a collective action problem that's very hard to solve.

One thing that annoys me is that some states, like California, don't have a tipped minimum wage. (Well, we do, it's just set to the same number as the non-tipped minimum.) And yet we're still expected to tip. I guess the real problem is that it's expensive to live in CA, and our minimum wage needs to be hiked up quite a bit.

Re: Utah becomes first US state to ban fluoride in its water

#500

Post by briandear »

bcssimulationz wrote: post #311
freehorse wrote: post #123

This is one of these US-specific polarised debates I find really bizarre, around some kind of issue that the rest of the world has by large solved but without any acknowledgement of this fact. Maybe the US should look into how other countries have solved it? It is completely bizarre witnessing both sides getting so polarised around a basically non-issue.

If you look at the US as a simulation that branched of the mother tree of Europe in the 15th century, you won't find it odd that it is rediscovering what Europe has already figured out. Just in it's own way and time. (No chemicals/colors in foods and adequate drinking water) Wait till they figure out mass transit, that will be a shocker.

Has Europe figured out mass transit? In Barcelona, a trip that takes me 1.5 hours of total time using “transit” takes me 28 minutes on my motor scooter. I think there is still some figuring out that needs to happen before I’ll add 2 hours to my daily commute.
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