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NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

simonwillison.net

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Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren't "general" models. They're statistical models. They're autocorrect or autocomplete on steroids -- and autocorrect/autocomplete don't require symbolic reasoning. It's also not at all clear to me what "symbolic" could mean in this context. If it means the software has concepts, my response would be that they aren't concepts of a kind that we can clearly recognize or label as such (edit: and that's to say no…

> These aren't "general" models. They're statistical models. They're autocorrect or autocomplete on steroids -- and autocorrect/autocomplete don't require symbolic reasoning. This is very "humans are just hunks of matter! They can't think!".

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Could you explain?

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These aren't "general" models. They're statistical models. They're autocorrect or autocomplete on steroids -- and autocorrect/autocomplete don't require symbolic reasoning. This is very "humans are just hunks of matter! They can't think!".

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Could you explain?

That "they predict the next token" doesn't necessarily imply "they can't reason".

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not sure what you're getting at. Could you explain?

That "they predict the next token" doesn't necessarily imply "they can't reason".

I'm not saying "they predict tokens; therefore, they can't reason." I'm saying "something that can't reason can predict tokens, so prediction isn't evidence of reasoning."

More specifically, my comment aims to meet the challenge posed by the person I answered:

> I highly recommend letting that fact be a little bit impressive, someday. There’s no way you live through any event that’s more historically significant, other than perhaps an apocalypse or two. [...] If you have any actual scientific argument as to why a model that can score 90-100 on a typical IQ test has only 1/10th the symbolic reasoning skills of a human, I’d love to eat my words.

I have no idea what would constitute a "scientific argument" in this instance, given that the challenge itself is unscientific, but, regardless, the results that so impress this person are, without question, achievable without reasoning, symbolic or otherwise. To say that the model "muses" or "has [...] symbolic reasoning" is to make a wild, arbitrary leap of faith that the data, and workings of these models, do not support.

The models are token-prediction machines. That's it. They differ not in kind but in scale from the software that generates predictions in our cell-phone keyboards. The person I answered can be as impressed as he wants to be by the high quality he thinks he sees in the predictions. That's fine. I'm not. In that respect, we just disagree. But if he's impressed because he thinks the model's predictions must or do betoken reasoning, he's off in la la land -- and so his wide-eyed, bushy-tailed enthusiasm is based on nonsense.

It's no different from believing that your phone keyboard is capable of reasoning, simply because you are delighted that it guesses the 'right' word often enough to please you.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#494
post #484

Earlier quoted context omitted.

>Is that not the work of commercial creative workers? Did it not exist pre AI? There's an argument to scale, certainly, but the idea that "things were better in the past before these > came out" is generally a suspect argument. The fact that all of that stuff was crap is central to my point. You might just need to give it another read. > Art is a way of seeing, not a way of creating. I don't think the technology is t…

There's no glib decree - a new technology has arrived. I'm being very honest about it - you can't put it back in the bottle, any more than you could put jacquard looms or machine woodcarving of trim could be. The position between art and craft can be endlessly debated and I put my stake in the ground. You can disagree! Folks who are impacted have every right to be pissed, organize, take action. All of these creative…

Well gosh, good thing someone in big tech gave me permission to be mad about many in my field being screwed by big tech! Too bad that won't help pay for my cancer treatment because there's no way in hell they'll push out a cure soon enough when they're dumping billions of dollars into figuring out how to sell other people's artwork. At least people won't have to waste an uncomfortable few minutes writing a thoughtful note to my wife in the aftermath when they can just "Ok, google" it.

>> Art is a way of seeing, not a way of creating.

> There's no glib decree

This is a glib decree and it completely ignores most of what art actually is in our world, rather than the quaint little box that most people in the NN business try to stuff it into. Your patronizing tone doesn't lend any authority or add depth to your initial analysis, which you essentially just restated using more words. The "art vs craft" dichotomy doesn't even approach the depth and complexity of the interplay of art and commerce in the worlds like video game development, music, cinema and television, and writing... hell even advertising. Like most tech dudes that assume their incredible mental might gives them some kind of pan-topic expertise allowing them to casually dismiss subject matter experts in other fields based on a few a priori thought exercises, you simply don't know how much more you need to learn to make informed decisions about this topic.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That "they predict the next token" doesn't necessarily imply "they can't reason".

I'm not saying "they predict tokens; therefore, they can't reason." I'm saying "something that can't reason can predict tokens, so prediction isn't evidence of reasoning." More specifically, my comment aims to meet the challenge posed by the person I answered: > I highly recommend letting that fact be a little bit impressive, someday. There’s no way you live through any event that’s more historically significant, oth…

If your argument is "they can't reason" (plus some other stuff about how they work), what reasoning test has an LLM failed for you to conclude that they can't reason? Whenever I've given an LLM a reasoning test, it seems to do fine, so it really does sound to me like the argument is "they can't really reason, because ".

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#497

Earlier quoted context omitted.

These aren't "general" models. They're statistical models. They're autocorrect or autocomplete on steroids -- and autocorrect/autocomplete don't require symbolic reasoning. It's also not at all clear to me what "symbolic" could mean in this context. If it means the software has concepts, my response would be that they aren't concepts of a kind that we can clearly recognize or label as such (edit: and that's to say no…

> These aren't "general" models. They're statistical models. They're autocorrect or autocomplete on steroids -- and autocorrect/autocomplete don't require symbolic reasoning. This is very "humans are just hunks of matter! They can't think!".

To be fair parent pointing out they're purely statistical machines predicting next token is incorrect anyways.

They are essentially next token predictors after first training, but then instruct models are fine tuned on reasoning and Q/A scenarios, afaik early research has determined that this isn't just pure parroting, that it does actually result in some logic in there as well.

People also have to remember the training for these is super shallow at the moment, when compared with what humans go through in our lifespans as well as our millions of years of evolution (as humans).

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm not saying "they predict tokens; therefore, they can't reason." I'm saying "something that can't reason can predict tokens, so prediction isn't evidence of reasoning." More specifically, my comment aims to meet the challenge posed by the person I answered: > I highly recommend letting that fact be a little bit impressive, someday. There’s no way you live through any event that’s more historically significant, oth…

If your argument is "they can't reason" (plus some other stuff about how they work), what reasoning test has an LLM failed for you to conclude that they can't reason? Whenever I've given an LLM a reasoning test, it seems to do fine, so it really does sound to me like the argument is "they can't really reason, because ".

That isn't the argument. I've stated the argument twice. My longer response to you starts by stating the core of the argument as succinctly and clearly as I can. That's the first paragraph of the post. Not only are you still not getting it. You're also twisting what I wrote into claims I have not made. I'm not going to explain myself a third time.

I'll instead say this: if you think these models must be reasoning when they produce outputs that pass reasoning tests, then you should also believe, every time you see a photo of a dog on a computer screen, that a real, actual dog is somewhere inside the device.

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#499
This is so freaking cool! Maybe all the naysayers in the comments here just want to be contrarian.

Imagine sending this audio back to 2010 and telling people it was all made with AI, voices, script, everything. Back then it would've made me go "oh yeah we are -totally- getting flying cars and a dystopian neon skyline in the 2020s"

Re: NotebookLM's automatically generated podcasts are surprisingly effective

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> These aren't "general" models. They're statistical models. They're autocorrect or autocomplete on steroids -- and autocorrect/autocomplete don't require symbolic reasoning. This is very "humans are just hunks of matter! They can't think!".

To be fair parent pointing out they're purely statistical machines predicting next token is incorrect anyways. They are essentially next token predictors after first training, but then instruct models are fine tuned on reasoning and Q/A scenarios, afaik early research has determined that this isn't just pure parroting, that it does actually result in some logic in there as well. People also have to remember the train…

What you're saying doesn't contradict what I wrote. I said models are trained. You're saying they're trained and fine tuned -- i.e. continue to be trained. I also didn't say they do any kind of parroting or that logic doesn't take place.

I'm saying, rather, that the models do what they're taught to do, and what they're taught to do are computations that give us a result that looks like reasoning, just the way I could use 3ds max as a teenager to generate on my computer screen an output that looked like a cube. There was never an actual cube in my computer when I did that. To say that the model is reasoning because what it does resembles reasoning is no different from saying there was an actual cube somewhere in my computer every time I rendered one.

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