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Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

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Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#491
An important point that seems to have been missed by most of the comments: the reason Apple lost this case is not because of the profit shifting scheme itself, but rather than they did not set up the scheme correctly:

> ASI's 2014 structure was an adaptation of a Double Irish scheme, an Irish IP–based BEPS tool used by many US multinationals. Apple did not follow the traditional Double Irish structure of using two separate Irish companies. Instead, Apple used two separate "branches" inside one single company, namely ASI.[34] It is this "branch structure" the EU Commission alleged was illegal State aid, as it was not offered to other multinationals in Ireland, which had used the traditional "two separate companies" version of the Double Irish BEPS tool. Under the Double Irish structure, one Irish subsidiary (IRL1) is an Irish registered company selling products to non–US locations from Ireland. The other Irish subsidiary (IRL2) is "registered" in Ireland, but "managed and controlled" from a tax haven such as Bermuda. The Irish tax code considers IRL2 a Bermuda company (used the "managed and controlled" test), but the US tax code considers IRL2 an Irish company (uses the registration test). Neither taxes it. Apple's subsidiary, ASI, behaved like it was IRL2, it was "managed and controlled" via ASI Board meetings in Bermuda, so Irish Revenue did not tax it. But ASI also did all the functions of IRL1, making circa €110.8 billion[6] of profits from non–US sales. The EU Commission contest IRL1's actions made ASI Irish, and the functions of IRL1 over-rode the Bermuda Board meetings in deciding the "managed and controlled" test. The commission had not brought any cases against US multinationals using the standard double two separate companies Irish BEPS tool. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Apple%27s_EU_tax_dispute)

In other words if they had actually set up two separate Irish companies instead of just using two separate branches of a single Irish company, their tax scheme would have been fully legal and not considered state aid. (Since many other companies availed themselves of such a scheme.)

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#492
post #417
post #349

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Worse in some ways, better in others. The USA generally has higher 5-year cancer survival rates, and shorter waits for specialist visits and advanced imaging procedures. Of course there's a high variance in outcomes based on location and affluence.

> shorter waits for specialist visits and advanced imaging procedures Those are not health outcomes, but merely services KPAs. The KPAs may be better, because a portion of population can't afford the services, so they don't have to be serviced at all.

> can't afford the services, so they don't have to be serviced at all.

If that's true how could:

> The USA generally has higher 5-year cancer survival rates

Still be true? Not providing any services to a significant proportion of population would result in a much lower average.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#493
post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

At the same time it's clear that Ireland has been "gaming the system" here, and the proof is the huge delta between the effective tax rates between member nations we're seeing in the judgement. I don't know that there's much of a moral or principled argument to be made here, every system gets gamed, and the European Commission is another such system. And Ireland absolutely agreed to be bound in that game as a price o…

Punishing Ireland for gaming the system by paying Ireland 13 billion hardly makes it seem like the EU is super concerned about Ireland's transgressions.

Apple having to pay those 13 B means that companies won't be as eager to have a headquarter in Ireland as they have been in the past. They could move somewhere else in the EU. That's a damage for Ireland and that's why Ireland sided with Apple for all this litigation.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#494

An important point that seems to have been missed by most of the comments: the reason Apple lost this case is not because of the profit shifting scheme itself, but rather than they did not set up the scheme correctly: > ASI's 2014 structure was an adaptation of a Double Irish scheme, an Irish IP–based BEPS tool used by many US multinationals. Apple did not follow the traditional Double Irish structure of using two se…

What a timeline we live in where the EU is basically telling Apple that they weren’t smart enough with their tax evasion - “see if you did it like other FAANG you could’ve gotten away with it!”

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#495
post #50

I found some rather troubling aspects within the ruling itself: 1. Retroactive application of arm's length principle The Court's reliance on the arm's length principle, despite acknowledging it's not required by EU law, is problematic. As stated in paragraph 124: > "Article 107(1) TFEU gives the Commission the right to check whether the level of profit allocated to such branches... corresponds to the level of profit…

Unfair and uncertain taxation is a European specialty.

Well after this ruling it's finally "fair" (well kind of) just still somewhat uncertain.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It's more difficult to determine where the value in software is being created. Still, big tech has a lot of R&D offices in Ireland.

That is definitely a difficult paper trail. If you make valves in Ireland they at least have to be shipped. Code just moves on the network. As do commands. But wouldn’t Ireland see their taxes as “working” if Irish coders are being hired to do the work?

There’s absolutely no employment requirement outside of any PR deals that IE may impose on Apple to satisfy their citizens. The tax evasion scheme they used does not necessitate any real humans in any jurisdictions - it’s almost literally just documentation.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#497

Somehow Ireland gets a 13 billion euro payday for illegally subsidising Apple so they do business in Ireland.

You realise these are American companies exploiting American laws to circumvent their tax burden while operating as MNCs in Europe? The notion of Ireland somehow getting a '13 billion payday' due to malfeasance or illegality is fantastical beyond belief.

> MNCs in Europe?

Why would you expect them to pay corporate taxes on all the income they make outside of the US? Would hardly make much sense...

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

That's not what really Apple did in Europe to pay little taxes. The scheme was essentially like this: - Apple Ireland bought iphones for 200$ or so (talking about pre X numbers, now they're likely slightly higher) - Apple Ireland sold iPhones to Apple Italy for 599€s - Apple Italy sold iPhones for 599€s + vat (thus avoiding to pay any corporate taxes in Italy while making billions) - Apple Ireland had a special agree…

> avoiding to pay any corporate taxes in Italy This us a fairly common strategy not limited to tech. For instance, Starbucks in the UK: > Starbucks Coffee Company (UK) made a £149m “gross profit” in the year to October 2023, up from £129m the year before. But after “administrative expenses” of £127m, its pre-tax profits were reduced to £16.9m, on which it paid £7.2m tax... In 2012, it was revealed that Starbucks had…

you're ignoring the 20% VAT on those 3bn sales, which provided 600m tax revenue. Why is it so important that they paid 7m in corporate tax instead of any other amount? Their business apparently has high cost of sales (like stores, personnel etc.), where by the way also taxes occur, e.g. for wages...

So I suggest to think twice if you want to paint the picture that Starbucks does not contribute it's fair share to taxes in the UK.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#499
post #488

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Many types of income cannot be offset nor or they covered by tax treaties. That's news to me and I've been doing international tax for 15 years. Please, tell me what types of income earned by a U.S. expat isn't covered by a tax treaty? It is not uncommon to pay more taxes in aggregate as an expat than you would pay in either country separately. This is objectively false. For an expat, income taxes paid to a resident…

> Please, tell me what types of income earned by a U.S. expat isn't covered by a tax treaty? I am not a tax person, but selling a house can cause you to owe tax in the US even if you did not owe any tax in the country you are living in (and sold the house in). Famously one of the reasons Boris Johnson tried to give up his US citizenship ( https://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-30932891 ).

You are correct, but this only applies because:

> Unlike the UK, the US levies capital gains tax on proceeds from the sale of a main residence.

I understand why it can feel unfair but by definition this is not "double taxing". The gains on the house were not taxed by the UK which is why he had to pay US taxes.

Re: Apple must pay 13B euros in back taxes, EU's top court rules

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Presumably these laws are published publicly, and apple has more an enough resources to hire enough lawyers to ensure they are in compliance. Ignorance of the law is not an excuse.

five accountants will produce six results from the same input based on the same laws, all of which the IRS will accept. Laws are not code. They are not unambiguous and noncontradictory. And forget apple! This means that any company in existence now needs a lawyer who understands the Treaty of Lisbon! Just in case some EU country tells them to do X, they now need to know if said country can actually say so! I think yo…

Dude, seriously? You’re acting like Apple was clueless here. This entire controversy is about Ireland and Apple colluding for over a decade to avoid paying corporate taxes anywhere else in the EU. Nobody involved was ignorant of the potential illegality, rather that was deliberately the point.
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