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Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

mono-project.com

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Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#491

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> NET Multi-platform App UI (.NET MAUI) apps can be written for the following platforms: > - Android 5.0 (API 21) or higher is required. > - iOS 11 or higher is required > - macOS 11 or higher, using Mac Catalyst. > - Windows 11 and Windows 10 version 1809 or higher, using Windows UI Library (WinUI) 3. Okay, where's Linux? That's what Mono was originally made for and where Mono really shines. Also, the development ex…

> - If you are working on Linux, you can build and deploy Android apps only > - You need a valid Visual Studio or IntelliCode subscription You don't: https://marketplace.visualstudio.com/items?itemName=ms-dotne... (DevKit, which is the licensed one, is completely optional - it gives you VS-style solution explorer. You can already get it with e.g. F#'s Ionide that works for any .NET file in the solution, though I use…

> You don't

Well, those sentences were quoted from Microsoft's own documentation...

Sure, you've shown that some tooling exists, but it's sadly not easy to discover or as well supported

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#492

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> {my favourite package} Well, that's where the problem lies, isn't it? The ecosystem for .NET is extremely limited compared to what's available for the JVM And the way JVM packages are distributed, with native libraries, BOMs and platforms allows more versatility than any other platform. The build system may be better in dotnet, but that only really matters for the first 10 minutes. Afterwards, the other tradeoffs b…

I don't think "JVM is more popular" argument does justice to Java (and Kotlin) strengths. With this reasoning, you could also say "C++ is more popular for systems programming" but it doesn't stop developers from switching to Rust, Zig or even C# as a wider scope and easier to use language that has gotten good at it. Nonetheless, you could make this argument for select Apache products, but that's Apache for you. It do…

> There is also an exercise in writing JNI bindings. Or maybe using Java FFM now which still requires you to go through separate tooling, build stage, deal with off-heap memory management API and still does not change the performance profile significantly. There's a reason it is recommended to avoid native dependencies in Java and port them instead (even with performance sacrifices).* Green Threads will only exacerbate this problem.

I'm not sure if you've used JNA before? That's been the state of the art for many years: https://github.com/java-native-access/jna

    public interface MSVCRT extends Library {
        public static MSVCRT Instance = (MSVCRT) Native.load("msvcrt", MSVCRT.class);
    
        void printf(String format, Object... args);
    }

    public class HelloWorld {
        public static void main(String[] args) {
            MSVCRT.Instance.printf("Hello, World\n");
            for (int i=0;i 
> "C++ is more popular for systems programming"

Sure, and it's got many great libraries – but actually using those is horrible.

You're absolutely right about Rust though. crates.io and cargo are amazing tools with a great ecosystem.

The primary issue I've got with the .NET ecosystem is actually closely related to that. Because it's so easy to import native libraries, often there's no .NET version of a library and everyone uses the native one instead. But if I actually want to build the native one I've got to work with ancient C++ build systems and all the arcane trouble they bring with them.

> Same applies to "packages that bundle native libraries".

You seem to have misunderstood. The fun part of the maven ecosystem is that a dependency doesn't have to be a jar, it can also be an XML that resolves to one or multiple dependencies depending on the environment.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#493

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mono was, but newer versions of .NET run on Linux and Mac. You can install at the link below, and then making a project is just `dotnet new console` and run with `dotnet run` https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/install/linux

Is there a way to build a GUI app with .NET on Linux? Will it be cross-platform?

Yes. https://platform.uno/uno-platform-for-linux/

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#494
post #391

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It sounds like .NET is on the way toward becoming the Java competitor it set out to be.

Is Java on the way to being a .NET Competitor yet? I can't answer that, I don't know Java well enough. I am told that the C# language has evolved faster and better than Java. Despite its origins in .NET 1.0 being basically a "Microsoft Java". But paradoxically there is now more diversity of actively used languages that target the JVM. e.g. Kotlin, Scala, Clojure.

I got curious and found there's a whole wikipedia page for each:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_CLI_languages

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_JVM_languages

Quantity of languages might be less important than: how many needs are served by those languages, whether the ecosystem is dynamic enough to keep expanding served niches, and whether the culture and community is likely to produce language support for a niche that matters to you ever or on a realistic timeline. The JVM does appear to have a lot more niches covered, but you can still do all the things those languages do in what's available for the CLI.

I don't know much about the current state of CLI and .NET beyond what I've read here, but it sounds like it's dynamic enough to keep expanding. I also don't know enough about the long tail of niche languages supported by each to know which direction they're headed.

That's the situation with the tools used for music production. In theory, any DAW (Digital Audio Workstation) can make any kind of music. In practice, they all move toward different kinds of music, and you'll run into increasing friction as you do weirder or more complex stuff if you pick the wrong DAW. Cubase can do electronic music, but you're better off with FL Studio or Live. Live and FL Studio can do orchestral, but you're better off with Cubase.

And I'd guess there's a similar dynamic with CLI and JVM and the languages that target them.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#495

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I don't think "JVM is more popular" argument does justice to Java (and Kotlin) strengths. With this reasoning, you could also say "C++ is more popular for systems programming" but it doesn't stop developers from switching to Rust, Zig or even C# as a wider scope and easier to use language that has gotten good at it. Nonetheless, you could make this argument for select Apache products, but that's Apache for you. It do…

> There is also an exercise in writing JNI bindings. Or maybe using Java FFM now which still requires you to go through separate tooling, build stage, deal with off-heap memory management API and still does not change the performance profile significantly. There's a reason it is recommended to avoid native dependencies in Java and port them instead (even with performance sacrifices).* Green Threads will only exacerba…

> The primary issue I've got with the .NET ecosystem is actually closely related to that. Because it's so easy to import native libraries, often there's no .NET version of a library and everyone uses the native one instead. But if I actually want to build the native one I've got to work with ancient C++ build systems and all the arcane trouble they bring with them.

What is the reason to continue making statements like this one? Surely we could discuss this without trying making accusations out of thin air? As the previous conversation indicates, you are not familiar with C# and its toolchain, and were wrong on previous points as demonstrated. It's nice to have back and forth banter on HN, I get to learn about all kinds of cool things! But this happens through looking into the details, verifying if prior assumptions are still relevant, reading documentation and actually trying out and dissecting the tools being discussed to understand how they work - Golang, Elixir, Swift, Clojure, etc.

> You seem to have misunderstood. The fun part of the maven ecosystem is that a dependency doesn't have to be a jar, it can also be an XML that resolves to one or multiple dependencies depending on the environment.

Same as above.

> JNA

I was not aware of it, thanks. It looks like the closest (even if a bit more involved) alternative to .NET's P/Invoke. Quick search indicates that it comes at an explicit huge performance tradeoff however.

From https://github.com/zakgof/java-native-benchmark?tab=readme-o...

"Now let's look into performance of the native call only, stripping out the struct allocation and field access:"

    Native call only (average time, smaller is better)

    JmhCallOnly.jna_direct   1373.435 ±  70.343  ns/op
    JmhCallOnly.jna          1346.036 ±  72.239  ns/op
    JmhCallOnly.bridj         383.992 ±  50.000  ns/op
    JmhCallOnly.jnr           298.334 ±  48.785  ns/op
    JmhCallOnly.jni_javacpp    56.605 ±   8.087  ns/op
    JmhCallOnly.foreign        49.717 ±   6.667  ns/op
This uses Win32 API. I will post numbers in a bit. .NET interop overhead in this scenario usually comes at 0.3-2ns (i.e. single CPU cycle which it takes to retire call and branch instructions) depending on the presence or absence of GC frame transition, which library loader was chosen and dynamic vs static linking (albeit with JIT and dynamic linking the static address can be baked into codegen once the code reaches Tier 1 compilation). Of course the numbers can be presented in a much more .NET-favored way by including the allocations that Java has to do in the absence of structs and other C primitives.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#496

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> This is wild, apparently this stuff is in the Debian repos now? It's not. Microsoft provides its own apt repository you need to add first.

This is from Mint 22. MS does have its own PPA though. $ apt search dotnet p dotnet-apphost-pack-6.0 - Internal - targeting pack for Microsoft.NET p dotnet-apphost-pack-7.0 - Internal - targeting pack for Microsoft.NET p dotnet-apphost-pack-8.0 - Internal - targeting pack for Microsoft.NET p dotnet-host - dotNET host command line p dotnet-host-7.0 - dotNET host command line p dotnet-host-8.0 - .NET host command line…

dotnet-sdk-8.0 should have the rest of what you need downstream from there. For other libraries and versions, you should be able to use NuGet with your project directly.

I've been using the script installer version intended for ci/cd as I actually like that installer more, it's the only one that really supports multiple versions correctly.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#497
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Mono was, but newer versions of .NET run on Linux and Mac. You can install at the link below, and then making a project is just `dotnet new console` and run with `dotnet run` https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/install/linux

For historical context: this was before the conclusion of the antitrust case that led Microsoft to start softening its stance toward open source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor... . This was the same year Antitrust came out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust_(film) Any support for open source or cross-platform stuff was a bulwark against claims of monopoly abuse, but none of it wor…

More like it was shoring up for developers who use and/or target mac and linux. Many devs are using macs and targetting linux for deployments. MS wants Azure to be a first class option for developers and is the focus for making money going forward. It makes sense for their developer tools to offer that.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#498
post #476

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Microsoft needs to stop letting marketing decide product names. Just look at Xbox: Xbox, Xbox 360, Xbox One, Xbox Series X/S.

The "Xbox Series X" is such a nonsensical name that only a marketing department could come with it. And this entire line of names exists solely because someone thought that nobody would buy a "Xbox 2" instead of a "PlayStation 3".

Because X's mean moar marketing power... Like the Extreme X870E X motherboard... There's multiple X's and Extremes and the X's mean extreme... so it's moar extreme!!!

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#499
post #116

Earlier quoted context omitted.

For historical context: this was before the conclusion of the antitrust case that led Microsoft to start softening its stance toward open source. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_v._Microsoft_Cor... . This was the same year Antitrust came out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antitrust_(film) Any support for open source or cross-platform stuff was a bulwark against claims of monopoly abuse, but none of it wor…

More like it was shoring up for developers who use and/or target mac and linux. Many devs are using macs and targetting linux for deployments. MS wants Azure to be a first class option for developers and is the focus for making money going forward. It makes sense for their developer tools to offer that.

Azure didn't exist. OS X had just come out and almost no one took Macs seriously as a development target yet. Windows was the only user-facing thing anyone developed for aside from little Java games on flip phones. The Web 2.0 takeover was still years off and Internet Explorer ran the show.

Is "historical context" not as clear as I thought? You're the second person to challenge this by pointing out the current situation when I'm talking about how we got here.

Re: Microsoft donates the Mono Project to the Wine team

#500
post #499

Earlier quoted context omitted.

More like it was shoring up for developers who use and/or target mac and linux. Many devs are using macs and targetting linux for deployments. MS wants Azure to be a first class option for developers and is the focus for making money going forward. It makes sense for their developer tools to offer that.

Azure didn't exist. OS X had just come out and almost no one took Macs seriously as a development target yet. Windows was the only user-facing thing anyone developed for aside from little Java games on flip phones. The Web 2.0 takeover was still years off and Internet Explorer ran the show. Is "historical context" not as clear as I thought? You're the second person to challenge this by pointing out the current situat…

The first Macs to use Intel processors were released in January 2006

Microsoft Azure was first released on February 1, 2010

Microsoft released .NET Core 1.0 on June 27, 2016

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