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Are animals conscious? New research

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Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#491

Post by [deleted] »

solardev wrote: post #363
jumploops wrote: post #305

I once witnessed a spider controlling a motion activated flood light to catch prey. At first I assumed the flood light in my backyard was just being triggered by the wind, as a spider had built a web in front of the sensor, however I then noticed that the light would turn on even when there wasn’t any wind. Upon closer inspection, I found that the spider had created a singular strand of webbing, thicker than the rest…

Don't those motion lights typically use passive infrared sensors? I'm surprised it's sensitive enough to see spider silk moving. Could the strand possibly have been blocking some radiative source behind the strand (the sun?)? Now if the spider knew THAT...

[deleted]

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#492

Post by npteljes »

dahart wrote: post #443
npteljes wrote: post #314

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Wouldn't be the wildest thing people, or medical professionals, believe. Even clearly displayed aversion to assumed-painful stimuli doesn't mean that people will believe that it's pain that the organism is feeling. Where this comes up pretty often is how crabs are often cooked, when cooks just chuck them alive into hot water. The other thing that people have to do is drawing lines, life's issues are otherwise overwhe…

You are rationalizing some assumptions and making overly broad generalizations about “people” and what they believe. Some people ignoring evidence doesn’t mean everyone does. The temporary misguided academic debate over pain in babies was specifically about the displayed aversion to painful stimuli. I do not buy that a significant number of people nor practicing pediatricians ever thought babies can’t feel pain. This…

I'll consider this. I do tend to focus on the negative, and hurtful behavior.

I agree that the given evidence is weak, but I can still see that medical professionals believed that it's not pain that babies have. Maybe because it's not "proper" pain somehow, maybe because, circling back to the original argument, their consciousness is not there yet, so there might be pain but there's no suffering, maybe because they won't remember, therefore their experience is invalid. Desensitization is also an issue that happens over time - the mind has to cope somehow.

These are not facts and I respect that there's no hard evidence regarding these things, pro or contra. This is just how the world comes across to me.

The year 1999 comes from the second source in the sentence.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#493

Post by echoangle »

lkdfjlkdfjlg wrote: post #410
copirate wrote: post #338

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> How do you "prove" that other people are conscious? For sentience scientists mainly look at behavioral cues: > For example, "if a dog with an injured paw whimpers, licks the wound, limps, lowers pressure on the paw while walking, learns to avoid the place where the injury happened and seeks out analgesics when offered, we have reasonable grounds to assume that the dog is indeed experiencing something unpleasant." A…

Exactly. All of that is reasonable and the behavior described are obviously present as anyone who's ever had a dog would tell. So I don't understand why "are animals conscious" is being debated at this point.

I’m not saying that this is the case, but all the mentioned behaviors are only indicators and could also be reflexive actions which the dog is genetically programmed to do because they work. If a beetle is flipped, it also has a “program” to get upright again, but that doesn’t mean it’s aware of its situation and is actively deciding something. I’m pretty sure dogs are conscious, but you can’t really tell from the outside. LLMs also appear to reason and make arguments but I wouldn’t call them conscious.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#494

Post by throwaway2037 »

mikestew wrote: post #396
stoperaticless wrote: post #247

Earlier quoted context omitted.

But sadly they dont have theory of rope.

Oddly, I’ve found that pit bulls won’t wrap themselves around a tree. We’ve had several in our house that are/were walked daily, and we volunteer at a dog shelter where my wife and I walk other pit bulls on a regular basis. There are exceptions, but my experience is that the vast majority will not let anything (like a tree) between themselves and their handler if on leash. Just when I think “ah, ha! You’re going to d…

I am not an pet owner. Are you saying that other breeds do this, but pit bulls are exceptional in this manner? If yes, do you have any thoughts why?

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#495

Post by lukan »

wruza wrote: post #475
delecti wrote: post #461

Earlier quoted context omitted.

If you're human, you aren't an obligate carnivore, because humans can live healthily on a fully vegan diet. Animal products (meat, dairy, eggs) certainly gave pre-industrial humans a big boost as a dense and (at times) readily available source of calories and protein, but that's a far cry from "needing" it. Modern usage of animal products for food is purely for convenience and pleasure. A point could be made that tha…

I don't feel good without meat, and good substitutes are less available. But my main point (which I started to write above but seemingly decided to omit, to my own confusion) is that this fear-cold-hunger-devour-alive-die-young bs is how wild nature works every day for eons. I am its creature and should see no guilt except for true sadism. I agree with regulating bad farms away, but suffering through reduction of my…

Yes, little animal babies get happily eaten by predators every day.

But they did not put them in cold metal boxes before to rot in their own shit.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#496

Post by throwaway2037 »

4ggr0 wrote: post #419
sim7c00 wrote: post #369

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I never really thought about it that way. killing loads of conscious beings. Until for Eid in Morocco I got the honour of helping to kill a sheep so the family could eat it. (100+ people tribe) I am still not a vegetarian, but do have a much more realistic view on what's really on our plates now. - I don't think eating meat is bad though. I _do_ eat a lot less meat now. (smaller portions and less frequent). Predators…

> I don't think eating meat is bad though Yeah I guess just the moment of eating it is not the bad aspect, but what comes before this moment. forcefully impregnating animals, taking their kids away from them, letting them live in concrete buildings without much access to fresh air or grass, transporting them in inhumane conditions etc. > the sheep killing there - it was an old sheep i frequently wonder if it would be…

    > i do eat meat (would love to stop)
I want to be encouraging here. Even reducing has a big impact on harm to animals and the environment. I'm down about 95-99% from childhood. I was a strict vegan for a while, but it was just too difficult socially. I realised that reducing my harm and environmental footprint by 95+% was enough. I don't worry too much about the rest. Please don't read this response that you need to reduce by 95%! Even reducing 50% is a huge win. Or you could try to switch to more ethical meat sources -- raised on nice farms with plenty of space. Again: This has a real impact.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#497

Post by throwaway2037 »

yoyohello13 wrote: post #390
4ggr0 wrote: post #356

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I genuienly think that this is one of the biggest factors when talking about this topic. Lots of people seem very defensive when talking about it. Because if they admit or speculate that animals have some form of consciousness, they also admit that they're responsible for killing thousands of conscious beings. As for myself, I can't believe that animals aren't concious.

I can't remember the exact book I was reading. I think "Old Man's War" or one of the sequels. But an advanced alien race captured some humans and was basically raising them like cattle. Inseminating women, harvesting milk, slaughtering for meat. It really affected my perception of how fucked up the whole process actually is.

Does anyone remember how they felt when the original Matrix film showed the scene of humans being farmed? It still stays with me today. The wave of cold sweat that came over me.

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#499

Post by 4ggr0 »

throwaway2037 wrote: post #496
4ggr0 wrote: post #419

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> I don't think eating meat is bad though Yeah I guess just the moment of eating it is not the bad aspect, but what comes before this moment. forcefully impregnating animals, taking their kids away from them, letting them live in concrete buildings without much access to fresh air or grass, transporting them in inhumane conditions etc. > the sheep killing there - it was an old sheep i frequently wonder if it would be…

> i do eat meat (would love to stop) I want to be encouraging here. Even reducing has a big impact on harm to animals and the environment. I'm down about 95-99% from childhood. I was a strict vegan for a while, but it was just too difficult socially. I realised that reducing my harm and environmental footprint by 95+% was enough. I don't worry too much about the rest. Please don't read this response that you need to…

> Even reducing has a big impact on harm to animals and the environment

yeah, agree 100%! Almost a year ago i was living vegetarian, but then a couple of months ago some minor depressive moods were enough to destroy my willpower to resist meat. i love the taste and texture of meat, incl. liver, sheep, kidney etc., so the reason for me to be vegetarian are purely ethical reasons.

but i will try to reduce my consumption again, i know that i can do it :)

Re: Are animals conscious? New research

#500

Post by naikrovek »

tuatoru wrote: post #254
moi2388 wrote: post #250

I’ve never understood these questions. “Are animals conscious?” Well, could you give me the definition of consciousness? No you can’t. So now you’re asking me both to define it and show if animals have it or not. Are animals aware of their surroundings? Yes. Are animals showing the behavioural signs of pain when you hurt them? Yes. Can animals direct attention? Yes. Can animals remember? Yes. Can animals learn? Yes.…

Do animals have friends, enemies, cliques? Yes. Do animals play practical jokes on each other? Yes. I've seen all of these in cows.

Cows are flippin' amazing creatures and as I age I get closer and closer to ending all meat consumption. I consume very little these days and it would not be a large jump to stop completely.

Cows are intelligent, curious, and they have a sense of humor, a desire to play. They have friends, enemies, and .. well, everything, really. They have different capabilities because their brains and bodies are different than ours, but they're every bit as legitimate of a life form as ourselves, and every bit as conscious and self-aware.

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