Grady's licking his lips right now
Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses
491–500 of 1001 posts
Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses
#492Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does that mean this was effectively captain error? Like in response to a power outage the decision was made to try to reverse and rather than arrest forward momentum it just pushed their forward vector into the piling?
Captain, or pilot? In Baltimore, as in most harbors, a local pilot comes on board to guide the ship. Is this their responsibility?
> In Baltimore, as in most harbors, a local pilot comes on board to guide the ship. Is this their responsibility?
I would doubt the pilot would have ordered the power to the ship to be cut and for everything to go dark right before hitting the bridge. Pretty sure they were probably telling them to navigate away from the pylon.
Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses
#493Earlier quoted context omitted.
Does that mean this was effectively captain error? Like in response to a power outage the decision was made to try to reverse and rather than arrest forward momentum it just pushed their forward vector into the piling?
Captain, or pilot? In Baltimore, as in most harbors, a local pilot comes on board to guide the ship. Is this their responsibility?
Yes, they have the responsibility, not the captain, as evidenced by the specific insurance they carry.
Of course, lawyers will try to spread the blame around (who chose the pilot, did captain's actions or orders somehow get in the way of the pilot; did captain not ensure engines were working properly...). But the base responsibility lies with the pilot.
It probably helps the captain that this was a ship owned and operated by a very big vertically integrated company (Maersk). Most ships are owned by smaller companies with a few (10-150) hulls and then chartered out. And while in this case the ship was chartered (along with crew) I bet Maersk's systems are stronger than your average charterer's.
Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses
#494Youtube tracking analysis from a knowledgeable mariner. He says that at about 1:24 AM the ship loses power (from video feed) while traveling 8.5 knots. at 1:25.30 power is restored. at 12:25.59 the ship shows smoke. The ship has already drifted in the channel. It is believed that at this time the ship applied full reverse power as evidenced by the black smoke. (My analysis: the ship drifted but hasn't turned in the c…
The video is surreal, it looks like it barely bumps the bridge and 2 seconds later the entire thing is gone. I don't know what I was expecting, the bridge just looked extremely fragile, makes me wonder what other bridges are at risk of an event like this.
Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses
#495Earlier quoted context omitted.
According to this book: https://www.amazon.com/Tankship-Tromedy-Impending-Disasters-... It is quite common and vessels often have outages that leave them Not Under Command. Usually they are safely at sea when this happens and they can drift for hours without causing problems. But of course there's always a possibility of it happening at exactly the wrong moment. The reasons for this are the usual: lack of redundancy,…
It wouldn't help with this accident, but you would think that the electronics would be on batteries. It wouldn't be too hard to have rack of batteries that would power the lights, instruments, radios, and sensors. Doesn't help if the propulsion or steering go out, but does make easier to know whats going on.
The problem is with steering. The rudder on a ship this big is going to be wall of steel several stories tall with gears as big as car.
Warships have several independent backup steering options reducing finally to a worm gear at the top of the shaft with a winch handle big enough to put a gang of men on it. But ships like this will have none of that. They will have a small wheel or joystick on the bridge and if power goes out the rudder will definitely stay in the last commanded position until power is restored. Even if they had auxiliary steering they would not have the crew to man those positions.
This ship would have alternate diesel power plants called "mules" (think APUs on aircraft). It's possible that when the lights came back on that was because they got a mule started.
But really if we don't want accidents like this to happen the ship should have redundancy. A 10,000 TEU container ship is one of the largest and heaviest moving structures ever created by man. Why is it acceptable that it is driven by exactly one engine powering one screw in front of one rudder?
By the way a ship this big with only one screw is very difficult to maneuver at slow speeds. They pretty much have to be going at least 14-15knots to have any rudder authority.
Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses
#496Earlier quoted context omitted.
> Bridges only last for roughly 50 years. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Iron_Bridge Opened in 1781, still in service and perfectly safe. Of course, there are no container ships nearby. But I reckon you could sail a container ship under it, given enough water; and to damage the bridge supports, the container ship would need climbing equipment. 1781 isn't many years after the Declaration of Independence.
If there was enough water for the 48m beam, 24m airdraft container ship that just collapsed the Baltimore bridge to attempt to navigate under the 30m span, 16m high Iron Bridge I don't think the bridge would stand a chance...
Heh! OK, so I'm wrong about being able to sail a container ship under the Iron Bridge.
It didn't take motor traffic, because when it was built, there was no motor traffic. But the claim I replied to was about all bridges. But it used to take vehicle traffic: the WP article says "In 1934 it was designated a scheduled monument and closed to vehicular traffic."
Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses
#497Youtube tracking analysis from a knowledgeable mariner. He says that at about 1:24 AM the ship loses power (from video feed) while traveling 8.5 knots. at 1:25.30 power is restored. at 12:25.59 the ship shows smoke. The ship has already drifted in the channel. It is believed that at this time the ship applied full reverse power as evidenced by the black smoke. (My analysis: the ship drifted but hasn't turned in the c…
Apparently (this is just via someone on Reddit who supposedly heard/read it somewhere) the ship mayday'd on losing power hoping the bridge could be cleared.
But why not (or did it?) also just blast its horn repeatedly, drawing attention so people on or near the bridge would notice it and realise something was wrong and perhaps even where it was headed?
I'm sure it's not allowed generally and not the protocol and whatever ... But it does seem like a common sense & do whatever you can sort of situation to me?
Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses
#498Didn’t waterway authorities (in the U.S.) used to require tugs to navigate large ships under bridges?
Tugs to navigate would have prevented this incident.
This container ship ran out of power twice and lost navigational control, which resulted in loss of life and billions in civilian infrastructure.
Seems one cannot rely on container ships alone to navigate narrow passages safely.
Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses
#499Earlier quoted context omitted.
Captain, or pilot? In Baltimore, as in most harbors, a local pilot comes on board to guide the ship. Is this their responsibility?
Yes, they have the responsibility, not the captain, as evidenced by the specific insurance they carry. Of course, lawyers will try to spread the blame around (who chose the pilot, did captain's actions or orders somehow get in the way of the pilot; did captain not ensure engines were working properly...). But the base responsibility lies with the pilot. It probably helps the captain that this was a ship owned and ope…
I thought the pilot only offered “guidance” to avoid responsibility. I learned that from a documentary on the Panama Canal.
Is that just a Panama Canal thing? Or should I find better documentaries?
Re: Baltimore's Key Bridge struck by cargo ship, collapses
#500Youtube tracking analysis from a knowledgeable mariner. He says that at about 1:24 AM the ship loses power (from video feed) while traveling 8.5 knots. at 1:25.30 power is restored. at 12:25.59 the ship shows smoke. The ship has already drifted in the channel. It is believed that at this time the ship applied full reverse power as evidenced by the black smoke. (My analysis: the ship drifted but hasn't turned in the c…
That timeline implies that there was only four minutes to respond. Is that correct? Where was the ship going? Does it travel under this bridge on its own power rather than a tug boat?
What I am wondering is: why couldn't the bridge have been blocked off preventing casualties? It seems like more than just the boat and operators' failing if there's no time or secondary precautions if such failures occur.
I wonder if it makes sense to protect bridges with pylons like they have in front of buildings to stop cars and trucks.