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Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

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Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#491

> And the minimal assurances in Mr. Sweeney’s curt response were swiftly undercut by a litany of public attacks on Apple’s policies, compliance plan, and business model. So according to Apple [edit] one isn't allowed to say bad things about a company publicly or they are allowed to ban your account? Interesting view.

At least in the U.S. business owners have the right to refuse service or turn away a customer to protect their patrons and business. That's the issue with all these providers. Every couple of weeks there's a story from someone whose Google account was suddenly closed with no way to access their emails or pictures again.

> At least in the U.S. business owners have the right to refuse service or turn away a customer to protect their patrons and business.

But this is not about Apple's right as a company to refuse any business with Epic, they still have that right.

This is about Apple not complying with a law that targets them due to their anti-competitive behavior; a law that requires them to give the means to operate an App Store competitor to anyone who requests it.

Apple is the one who decided to require an Apple developer account in order to operate an App Store competitor, so they effectively gave up their right to refuse any business with Epic by adding this unnecessary requirement.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#492
All parties involved want to flex their muscles and most here argue based on how impressed they are by the flexes displayed.

Apple wants to show that they can’t be brought to their knees.

Epic wants to show that they can get away with shit.

The EU wants to show that they have teeth and are to be feared.

In the meantime, the only organization with the actual final say, the CJEU, is off forgotten in these debates and is currently warming up to accept and adjudicate Apple’s appeal for the ~$2B fine based on art. 102 TFEU.

Apple and Epic are private parties, and the EC is just an executive body. The CJEU in this is analogous to SCOTUS.

The best we can do as bystanders in the meantime is asses on existing principles whose flexing actually has some power behind it.

Epic’s contract with Apple was terminated prior to all this. The US courts have their blessing for this. Epic tried to get unbanned, most notably after changes in Korea, and Apple said they weren’t interested.

Now Epic pulled a stunt and was stupid enough to publish the emails. Based on the time and date of those emails and their public announcement that they “got their dev account back,” we can surmise that Epic just created a new account with the information of their newly erected Swedish entity. This process is 99% automated.

Afterward, they emailed Apple. Not to get permission to return but to state that they are back. That’s when the ball started rolling.

To enter into a valid contract, there needs to be mutual assent. Leaving nuance by the wayside, that means that both parties needed to actually want to enter into a contract with one another.

In the US, this used to be measured against a subjective standard but later shifted to an objective standard that boils down to whether a reasonable person would consider it an acceptance of an offer. In the EU, it’s still a subjective standard where intent to enter a contract is essential.

All of this is to say that if push comes to shove, no court, especially not a European one, is going to consider Epic simply creating a new account when Apple has made it clear time and time again that they don’t want to do business with them, to be sufficient for forming a valid legal agreement.

Without a valid legal agreement, the status quo prior to this event is leading. This being a situation in which Apple and Epic don’t have an agreement.

The DMA doesn’t have provisions that would force parties to enter into an agreement and force them to do business with each other. This is because it wouldn’t be able to withstand adjudication by the CJEU but also because the EU would never want to open Pandora’s box like that. The implications of that would be quite literally beyond comprehension.

So if there’s no valid contract and the EU doesn’t have the power to force one, ask yourself whose flexing is merely a flex and whose flexing is backed by the power of the CJEU? Who’s doing who a favor here?

We know at least of one party that they consistently go out of their way to make a point, even when the underlying issue they use as motivation is already moot. The point being made is that their teeth are truly sharp. So why not use those teeth in this instance and chomp into the flesh. Are we to believe that they’ve lost their appetite for their favorite meal?

Right as their latest pet project has gone into effect no less?

After being embarrassed by their prey who was able to convince the courts to reach into their mouth and reveal that those teeth are not as sharp as they’ve been made out to be almost a decade ago? An embarrassment that they’re still trying to undo in court at this very moment?

If someone who was so shamelessly neutered had the actual power to draw blood by chomping down into the flesh, would it be likely they’d rather growl?

I don’t think so.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#493
post #389

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> Microsoft simply lacked the network effects MS beat Apple to market by a considerable margin. Windows Mobile substantially predates the iPhone, and it was actually usable. (I had one of their flagship devices.) But MS’s OS concept was incoherent, their UI was laggy, their web browser was unbearably slow despite arguably superior hardware, their form factor was not snazzy. And, unlike Apple, they utterly failed at m…

blackberry didn't seem to care about regular consumers until it was to late, instead relying on corporate customers and relying on integration with enterprise messaging software. windows was well windows 8 and everyone hated it and everything about it. (and pre-windows phone 8 it was to fragmented with to many incompatible versions and little 3rd party support) Palm/HP WebOS was the real mobile OS with the best chanc…

I think a lot of lessons learned around iPhone 2007-2012 have to do with looking at the elephant in the room.

Blackberry was doing great with keyboards and refused to sell more of. Windows Mobile had tons of muscles as market share they just trimmed off. Windows Phone had Marketplace trust issue that couldn't be solved. Nokia burned itself down before Google. Palm did most of it right, but couldn't be bothered with exclusivity reneg.

I can't say solving any one of them could have saved each of the brands, but they all had one giant elephant each that were enough to drag them down.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#494

Earlier quoted context omitted.

EU rules say Apple can't prioritize their own browser. PWAs only work with WebKit due to the iOS security model, and the amount of work necessary to try to support PWAs with third-party browser engines securely was way out of scope for the time frame to support the DMA. Because Apple can't prioritize their own browser, they had to remove PWA support entirely in the EU. Naturally there was a lot of backlash, and so Ap…

I don't really see it as prioritising your own browser. It's a system level feature and uses the system provided web engine. Microsoft doesn't let you swap out EdgeHTML or Trident for applications that use the native OS web frame. But apps shouldn't be forced to use that web frame is the issue the commission had and the DMA attempts to resolve.

Notably, Android does let users swap out the system webview. So clearly such a thing is possible.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#495
post #77

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Yes, and that's why monopolies must die, in practice desolved by governments. Once you buy a smartphone today you and everybody who wants to do further business with you are at the mercy of a monopolist. For Apple 100%, for Google only 98% because you could side-load. But not a secure and practical solution today.

I don't think monopoly is the right word here.

Conversation needs to shift to "market power" which is where the EU has gone. The fact that Apple shares the App store market with Android evenly in terms of users for example is meaningless when they nonetheless hold the vast majority of the influence through their market power.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#496

Amazing how fast this decision was reversed. It's truly awesome to see regulators standing up to walled gardens. This will greatly benefit both developers and consumers.

Apple should offer 2 versions of the phone. One version for the consumers who appreciate the extra level of security and another for the rest.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#498

Earlier quoted context omitted.

Would you rather have no choice? I get the sentiment, but it's nice to finally have lawmakers and regulators standing for what's right - for once.

I would rather that developers do not have the choice to choose an app store where anything goes. It’s funny how when Apple threatens a European company the EC can act within days, but when a German company is violating the GDPR, it takes 4 years for them to act. What a strange coincidence.

> I would rather that developers do not have the choice to choose an app store where anything goes.

That's not up to you. What you get to decide is which stores you're willing to install apps from. If lots of people refuse to install apps from unrestrictive stores then developers who want to reach those users will have to meet the requirements of more restrictive stores.

You would only not have this choice if the app has a dominant market position, and then can force you to get it from a store you don't want to use. But then your problem isn't an overabundance of trust busting, it's an insufficiency of it.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#499
post #32

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> You can be completely on board with the DMA but still see Epic's behavior as entirely profit motivated and "freeing Fortnite" should not be any official's priority. The Digital Markets Act is all about profit-motivated businesses. It regulates markets, not charities. It's not anti-profit at all, just pro-competition, and Apple was attempting to stifle competition.

Precisely! This all about market competition which may both spur new technologies and lower prices for consumers. The entire point of DMA is to make sure platforms can’t use lock in to prevent others from joining the market for digital goods and services. What terrifies Apple isn’t Fortnite, it’s that Epic will make a *better* AppStore.

"better"? You're giving Epic too much credit. Just see the Play Store competitors like Samsung or Huawei: Full of ads, and in general a terrible experience.

Re: Epic says Apple will reinstate developer account

#500

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I doubt its had any impact at all to iphone sales or their service subscriptions.

Their stock took a major hit.

What are you on about? Today they were in the green and on the day this played out, March 6, the needle barely moved.

The dip started 2 days prior on March 4, the day the EC announced their ~$2B fine based on TFEU, which has nothing to do with the DMA. One the appeal is filed it’ll go back up, as it’s already almost back to before that news. And then a week later when Cook farts, it’ll dip again.

Such is the nature of stocks, at least on the short term. On the long term, 1Y and up, it’s solidly in the green.

Not to mention that stock prices and revenue (which is what they’re talking about) are two separate things.

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