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Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

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Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#491

Post by fzeroracer »

remarkEon wrote: post #265
voidfunc wrote: post #199

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I just don't have any interest in kids. They're expensive and they require a ton of sacrifice. I'd rather travel, golf, do hobbies and generally enjoy my life. The only people that seem to want me to have babies are my parents so they can have grand kids... too which I've told them "Thank you for having me, but that's not a valid reason for me to sacrifice my life". I don't really care about the preservation of the h…

Whenever I encounter this attitude I like to remind that person that they should have no voice, whatsoever, in what happens in government and politics anymore. I don't want people who are self-selecting themselves out of the future having any say in what happens for my children. It's fine that you don't want kids, enjoy the golf course I guess. But in general I will discount your opinions to zero on anything else of…

Fine, if that's your argument that childless people are leeches and shouldn't have a voice then give me back the tax money I pay to subsidize you.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#492

Post by moogly »

datavirtue wrote: post #45
atomicnumber3 wrote: post #16

Anecdata: I am 31 and have 3 young kids. They have 0 cousins and, on top of that, 0... second cousins? Cousins-once-removed? Whatever the one is for my cousin's kids. My kids are my grandma's only great-grandkids. And I have... 6 cousins. On top of that, at my last job, on my team of 15, I was the only one with kids, and only 1 of those 15 engineers were under the age of 30. At my current job, my team is 8, and again…

I've worked with plenty of people who have no visible significant other, even. It's fucking weird. Thirty+ (40+) year old guys living alone in huge houses, never married. I'm guessing they are just hitting up sex workers. These are smart, well adjusted people who would have made good fathers.

I also worked with a 60+ woman who once said at the lunch table "if you're a 35 year old guy and single there's something seriously wrong with you". Maybe you would have hit it off with her.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#493

Post by epolanski »

atomicnumber3 wrote: post #16

Anecdata: I am 31 and have 3 young kids. They have 0 cousins and, on top of that, 0... second cousins? Cousins-once-removed? Whatever the one is for my cousin's kids. My kids are my grandma's only great-grandkids. And I have... 6 cousins. On top of that, at my last job, on my team of 15, I was the only one with kids, and only 1 of those 15 engineers were under the age of 30. At my current job, my team is 8, and again…

Of my friends, 35+ something in Italy, only a handful has kids.

The others gave up or don't care or haven't met anyone (which they also kind of gave up a long time ago).

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#494

Post by valzam »

kelnos wrote: post #451
atomicnumber3 wrote: post #99

Earlier quoted context omitted.

I'm baffled my peers , who absolutely could afford to, still have no interest. These are people making 150-200k (and at my prior job, 200-400k).

I could absolutely afford to have children, but have chosen not to. The main reason is that I just don't feel "called" to be a parent. When I think about (and see, from others I know who have kids) the amount of work, and complete shift in lifestyle, it takes to raise a child, I get completely turned off by the idea. If I had a kid, I'm sure I'd love them, and derive joy from them, but I don't believe the trade off i…

I was in a similar boat but did end up having a son recently with my wife. I am still pretty sure that I would be happy without kids but I am also happy with a kid. One thing I think people do tend to overestimate is how much work kids will be in the long term. Yes, short term is crazy, the first couple of years are very intense. But they become more and more independent each year and grow into an equal member of your family. Think about your own parents. I don't think mine were significantly constrained in their life after we turned 10. I mean if you think you'd want to go one month long solo travels each years that's a different story but otherwise kids can be pretty independent. I stayed home alone for a week because I didn't want to go on family holiday when I was 15.

If kids stay one year olds forever no one would have kids, you'd go insane. But that's not the case.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#495

Post by epolanski »

beaned wrote: post #64
mmasu wrote: post #35

Earlier quoted context omitted.

with 3 kids at 31 you would most likely be the outlier in many countries. all the rest you said resonates - so many people do not want to have kids at all anymore, and it’s not difficult to understand why (socioeconomic uncertainty, environmental issues, a lot of places are not “child friendly”, and there’s more). having kids today seems to be an even more difficult undertaking than in the past; and in my opinion the…

It isn't a more difficult undertaking. It was never easy, we've just been raised softly and do not value children the same way previous generations did. An outlier in many places, but not most. Only in the Western first world is this now normal.

True.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#496

Post by vidarh »

caskstrength wrote: post #481
vidarh wrote: post #172

Earlier quoted context omitted.

> To a degree this resource can be stolen from other countries, via immigration. But this only works to a degree and at a larger scale it is still a zero sum game. It's going to increasingly become a challenge. China's population is contracting. India has hit replacement and will start to see decline barring immigration over the next 20-30 years. Only sub-Saharan Africa is left with above replacement birth rates. We'…

> We're about to hit increasingly aggressive competition both to hold on to people, and to attract immigrants as more and more countries start getting bitten by demographic shifts. And yet we are seeing more and more walls (literally and figuratively) that rich countries put in the way. Even for "desirable" people immigrating and naturalizing in a western country the whole process is quite degrading, all the quotas a…

Because it hasn't started to bite enough yet for the most desirable targets, coupled with politicians that have painted themselves into corners and are struggling to find ways out.

E.g. in the UK, the last several Conservative governments have on one hand presented themselves as tough on immigration, with deals to send asylum seekers to Rwanda (a few hours worth of applicants is all the deal can accommodate), putting them on barges (another few hours worth), turning back boat refugees, etc., while at the same time presiding over the largest increase in net migration in British history.

Predictably the conflict between that image and reality is starting to cause problems for them, and while immigration numbers are still high enough despite a process that is intentionally hostile, eventually the supply of people wanting to come will dip below the numbers that still allow the UK to be selective about whom to accept.

We've already gotten a slight taste of that with the sharp dip in EU/EEA migrants, who, as it turns out don't feel the UK is worth it enough to go through the immigration process vs. just showing up the way we could before (I'm in the UK with EU/EEA Settled status), and it's caused assorted groups complaining..

It will take until you have broader labour shortages before you see the real pressure though - especially countries buffered by unemployment will be able to put it off a bit longer, but when it hits, it will hit hard and just raising fertility rates won't be sufficient, because it has a lag of 2 decades of worsening conditions before it even starts reversing the drop in the labour supply.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#497

Post by zoidb »

epolanski wrote: post #490
bongodongobob wrote: post #75

You're baffled people aren't having kids? What bubble do you live in? People straight up can't afford housing much less children. The avg American is completely priced out of owning a home right now. Edit: the replies - y'all are out of touch. Visit an average family in the Midwest with a household income of < $100k/yr that doesn't own a home yet.

You're naive if you think that in the richest moment in the world history people are not making children in the richest regions for financial reasons. That's nonsense. Poor people always had kids, still do. What changed is that people aren't able anymore to make sacrifices, huge in time and money for kids.

I would add to this is that the social pressures for having children have significantly diminished. I see a lot of people commenting on the side that having kids has become more difficult, which there may be some truth to but what people seem to ignore is that it has gotten a lot easier and more enjoyable to be a single person without kids. Society has adapted to this new cohort of childless adults and are catering to them in new ways.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#498

Post by darepublic »

sangnoir wrote: post #377
keiferski wrote: post #346

Earlier quoted context omitted.

It’s a liability only if consumerism is your only value. Which for a lot of people, is absolutely the case. And it’s only logical if you only care about your own individual desires. It almost isn’t worth arguing about, though, because the reality is that society is ultimately made up of people that have kids. All the rationalizations in the world won’t change the basic facts of biology.

Is daycare "consumerism"? Other factors include stagnant wages, collage debts, amd even high medical costs - a vaginal birth with no pain medications and no complications can cost 5-figures (and may include a line-item for a parent holding the baby!). Inflation has made baby products really expensive (did I mention stagnant wages?), and this is before daycare, which can be cost as much as rent in some locales, unless…

Fwiw my parents grew up poorer than me and had a lot of siblings. Listening to one of them, they had to refrain from flushing the toilet to save on water, shared beds, dropped out of high school to get a job etc. It was a totally different world but rightly or wrongly lots of child bearing. Among the older gen siblings (6) about half had kids.. no more than two each. In the subsequent generation again some had kids but only one or two. I have kids, wanted more but wife didn't. In this pace of things the birthrate clearly is going down. If two people have at most two kids then population is going to decline.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#499

Post by makeitdouble »

silisili wrote: post #397
bongodongobob wrote: post #75

You're baffled people aren't having kids? What bubble do you live in? People straight up can't afford housing much less children. The avg American is completely priced out of owning a home right now. Edit: the replies - y'all are out of touch. Visit an average family in the Midwest with a household income of < $100k/yr that doesn't own a home yet.

Yes they can. People are just too selfish and think of kids as costing lattes and ruining their free time. Believe it or not, kids don't have to be expensive as reports have you believe. They can go to public school, wear hand me downs or walmart clothes, and eat what would have been leftovers. Most coworkers with kids I've spoken with complain about costs of daycare, babysitting, and Montessori schools. We pay for n…

"it takes a village to raise a kid"

Yet the message sent to potential parents is so far from that, I won't blame people foregoing having kids.

There's a strong movement pushing for smaller governments and less public and social expenses in general, that directly makes it worse (kids are sick all the time, they need schools, public transportation, libraries, public services in general). You're arguing for giving up on daycare when so many companies are pushing back to office rules.

To your point, if a couple is at the point they couldn't afford lattes if they had kids, I don't see them properly raising that kid without a ton of aid, and looking at the comments we usually have here, most will point the finger at them for not being responsible enough instead.

Re: Cousins are disappearing. Is this reshaping the experience of childhood?

#500

Post by navane »

beltsazar wrote: post #345
bongodongobob wrote: post #75

You're baffled people aren't having kids? What bubble do you live in? People straight up can't afford housing much less children. The avg American is completely priced out of owning a home right now. Edit: the replies - y'all are out of touch. Visit an average family in the Midwest with a household income of < $100k/yr that doesn't own a home yet.

> Edit: the replies - y'all are out of touch. If you're in the minority, maybe you're the one who's out of touch? It's not that they can't afford having children—many of those who are less fortunate than them still have children. It's just that they think the cost of raising children, which likely affects their current lifestyle, is not worth it.

If you are in the minority on HN, it's almost more likely you are in the majority outside HN.
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